Automation system hit by lightning
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dementeddigital
Active Member
Yes he is. 
DELInstallations said:
Protectors for AC have same clamping voltage - also called a let-through voltage. 330 volts. How do you adjust a clamping voltage when all protectors have the same 330 volt number? You don't. Protectors installed for free by cable and phone companies also have a best clamping voltage. You did not even know those exist. And again, that number (that you did not know) is irrelevant since earth ground ultimately determines what the 'system' really clamps to: ie 330 volts or 4670 volts.
Amps is the critical number - not volts. Since clamping voltage increase from 330 volts to well over 900 volts (catastrophic failure) when a protector has too few amps. Therefore a minimal 'whole house' protector for AC mains is 50,000 amps.
All protectors have nanosecond response times. More than sufficient for surges that are microseconds. And irrelevant since response times are really determined by impedance (ie length) of a hardwire to earth. As discussed with numbers that you ignore. So you confuse what defines human protection (Type 1, 2, 3) with appliance protection. Relevant numbers such as 330, 4670, 50000, 8/20, 10 feet, 8000, 99.5% to 99.9%, and near zero hundreds of joules make your eyes glaze over. You even fear to learn about the 'primary' protection layer.
Clamping voltages and response times are bull. Recommended without even one number. All are cautioned about the electrically naive who *know* only using their feelings. Who routinely ignore facts and numbers from over 100 years of well proven science. Who even ignore the lessons from Ben Franklin in 1752.
Homeowners only needs the 'secondary' protection layer - one properly earthed 'whole house' protector. It costs about $1 per protected appliance. Homeowner should inspect the existing 'primary' protection layer. Those two protection layers (and maybe lightning rods) mean no damage from all surges - including direct lightning strikes.
OP suffered classic damage because a 'whole house' solution did not exist on both ends of every wire between a detached garage and house. A single point earth ground and 'whole house' protector are required in both structures.
NeverDie
Senior Member
IIRC, IEEE recommends both a whole house solution together with individual surge protectors. So, at least according to IEEE, one does not substitute for the other.
If you can tolerate the hassle, I still think unplugging and disconnecting a device such that it is far away from wiring probably offers more protection than leaving it connected, even if it's connected in a way that's IEEE compliant. I'm curious if anyone besides westom disagrees with that? In the very small sample of lightning damage that I've witnessed firsthand, it was always the stuff connected to the wiring that got damaged; anything sitting in a box on the shelf or otherwise disconnected was totally unaffected.
If you can tolerate the hassle, I still think unplugging and disconnecting a device such that it is far away from wiring probably offers more protection than leaving it connected, even if it's connected in a way that's IEEE compliant. I'm curious if anyone besides westom disagrees with that? In the very small sample of lightning damage that I've witnessed firsthand, it was always the stuff connected to the wiring that got damaged; anything sitting in a box on the shelf or otherwise disconnected was totally unaffected.
dementeddigital
Active Member
westom said:
No and no. Clamping voltage is not the same as let-through voltage. All SPDs don't clamp at the same voltage.
And frankly sir, you are hilarious and full of yourself.westom said:
No liar here. A whole house solution does nothing if the surge is passing through the LV portion of the system connected to EG and "protected" by the whole house SPD or if it has a ground reference.
"protectors" as you determined that I'm unaware of do ZERO to protect any premises connected devices. They've always been to protect the CO and NOT the premise wiring or devices. It's so basic and lets so much current through that anything connected downstream is going to be a smouldering pile. So much for clamping voltage and response times.
So how many systems and devices have you engineered, designed and installed?
DELInstallations said:
How does that current get into LV portion of the system if it is earthed BEFORE entering a building? it doesn't.
Meanwhile a 'whole house' solution addresses all types of surges - including any that might be generated by a household appliance.
OP has damage typically because wires between a detached garage and house were not properly earthed using a 'whole house' solution. How to avert that damage was well understood over 100 years ago. That solution even exists in every town today.
I would like to understand your confusion. But some sentences are not even coherent. Items you are trying to discuss are both vague and subjective. Subjective is how junk science is proven. Please post relevant numbers.
For example, "... I'm unaware of do ZERO to protect any premises ...". Are you confusing 'near zero' with ZERO? Since denials do not even cite numbers, then it might as well be a Trump style accusation.
Telco installs 'whole house' protection (for free) at the subscriber interface for the same reason the OP needs that protection on both his detached garage and house. Properly earthed protector at both ends of phone wires are necessary to protect both subscriber and CO equipment. Properly earthed protector at both a detached garage are necessary to protect both garage and household appliances. If he did not have a 'whole house' solution at that garage, then damage to contents in a garage and house may and did occur.
NeverDie said:
IEEE *defines* all type of protectors. IEEE only *recommends* some with numbers. Properly earthed protection would do 99.5% to 99.9% of the protection.
IEEE recommendations. From the IEEE Red Book:
What does not have that earth ground? Plug-in protectors. IEEE *defines* plug-in type protectors. Then IEEE *recommends* what does effective protection - a protector that diverts surges to earth ground. From the IEEE Emerald Book:
Why do the electrically naive recommend protectors that do not have a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth? IEEE recommendation says that low impedance connection must exist.
IEEE also says why a plug-in protector is virtually useless without a 'whole house' solution:
Why is that relevant? How many joules does that plug-in protector claim to 'block' or 'absorb'? Hundreds? A thousand? Large surge currents would destroy a near zero plug-in protector. Or in rare cases, created fires. Plug-in protector can only supplement the 'secondary' protection layer. One 'whole house' solution is the 'secondary' layer. Only then can a plug-in protector add tiny and additional protection from residual currents.
Meanwhile, robust protection already inside appliances makes residual currents irrelevant. As demonstrated by many numbers posted previously.
More IEEE recommendations. If a 'whole house' solution alone does 99.5% of the protection, then how good is that? From the IEEE Green Book:
Why would anyone spend tens of times more money on near zero joules (plug-in) protectors when a properly earthed 'whole house' solution (costing about $1 per protected appliance) is so useful for how many years? Many believe hearsay and subjective claims from advertising because it was the first thing they were told. Few to none learn what the IEEE recommends. Some even confuse 'definition' with 'recommendation'. Best protection earths BEFORE destructive surges enter a building.
Had the OP installed inexpensive and proven 'whole house' protection on both detached garage and house, then that damage should have been completely averted. No 'whole house' protection at his detached garage explains his damage. IEEE recommends properly earthed protectors. That is a 'whole house' type. That is not a plug-in type.
Learning that is hard. Difficult is to learn a first thing told (ie from advertising or hearsay) was a lie. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. IEEE says so.
Quoted previously was the conclusion from an IEEE paper. Plug-in (point of connection) protectors can create damage "even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are present at the point of connection of appliances." We demonstrated same in investigations that were subjected to engineering review. Damage from any surge was unacceptable.
IEEE recommends properly earthed protectors. Plug-in protector without a 'whole house' solution is not recommended. 'Whole house' protector without plug-in protectors means 99.5% of protection - or no damage after how many years? That simplest, least expensive, and IEEE recommended solution should be more than sufficient for most homes. Not having that solution on a detached garage explains his damage and demonstrates why a 'whole house' solution is essential.
NeverDie
Senior Member
Let's get concrete with the recommendations for the whole house protection. What about this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-Whole-House-Surge-Protector-CHSPT2ULTRA-1/204761136 ? If not that, then what exactly? It's time to name names.
Defined was a minimal 'whole house' protector number. 50,000 amps. That protector is over 100,000 amps. So it is better than a minimally acceptable protector that sell for about $60.NeverDie said:
'Whole house' protectors come from companies known for their integrity including Intermatic, Square D, Ditek, Siemens, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Syscom, Leviton, ABB, Delta, Erico, General Electric and Cutler-Hammer (Eaton).
That amp number defines protector life expectancy over 'many' surges. Earth ground (including a low impedance connection) defines protector effectiveness during 'each' surge.
For example, if a hardwire connects that protector to earth by going up over a foundation, then protection is compromised. Because protection is defined by the quality of and connection to what absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. That hardwire is too long, has sharp bends, and is not separated from other non-grounding wires.
That protector (with the always required earth ground connection) is strongly recommended. But a connection to earth ground must be through the foundation and down to single point earth ground to be shorter and have no sharp bends.
Protectors are simple science - should not fail even after many direct lightning strikes. 'Art' of protection is the single point earth ground. A utility Tech Tip 8 demonstrates good, bad, and ugly (preferred, wrong, and right) solutions for what is even more important - a single point earth ground:
http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-business/products/power-quality/tech-tip-08.asp
A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - the item that actually does protection.
That is the 'secondary' protection layer. Also critical is the 'primary' protection layer.
Too bad Westrom isn't up to speed on Transorbs or the carbon fused based protectors. Self sacrifice to disconnect the downstream devices or shunt to ground.
Again, you're hilarious. Quite the troll.
The telco protectors you tout as the cat's meow are self sacrificing....they shunt to ground or physically disconnect and shunt to ground. Transorbs weaken with every hit. They also have such a high passthru voltage that they allow damage to the electronics downstream.
Nobody has argued anything about a proper EG and connection of equipment to it, yet you're hanging your hat on beating the dead horse. Again, you're beating the subject of whole house, yet that will do zero for a LV connected system connected to the whole house solution that you keep harping on.
Please provide your background and credentials for the purposes of discussion and relevancy.
westom said:
Again, you're hilarious. Quite the troll.
The telco protectors you tout as the cat's meow are self sacrificing....they shunt to ground or physically disconnect and shunt to ground. Transorbs weaken with every hit. They also have such a high passthru voltage that they allow damage to the electronics downstream.
Nobody has argued anything about a proper EG and connection of equipment to it, yet you're hanging your hat on beating the dead horse. Again, you're beating the subject of whole house, yet that will do zero for a LV connected system connected to the whole house solution that you keep harping on.
Please provide your background and credentials for the purposes of discussion and relevancy.
DELInstallations said:
A telco CO suffers about 100 surges with each storm. They replacing tens of thousands of protectors with each storm? Of course not. But that is what you have claim.
Everything weakens with age. So parts are sufficiently sized and properly earthed to survive direct lightning strikes even for decades. Unfortunately others here still do not get it. Protectors do not do protection. Earth ground does. Does not matter if you get it. Others foolishly remain attached to an advertising myth that protectors do protection. When numbers even demonstrate how high profit and near zero protectors can even earth a 4670 volt surge into adjacent appliances..
A sacrificing protector is ineffective. But it does have one desirable feature. It can report when a protector was grossly undersized (ineffective) for that venue. And defined a path that a surge took destructively to earth. Then overstressed component can also be identified and replaced.
Why do we need to know your emotional state? That does nothing for the OP, anyone else, or the topic. OP had damage in a detached garage and house probably because a 'whole house' solution was not properly earthed at both ends of every wire between that garage and house.
Obviously transorbs cannot be used on communication circuits due to parameters such as excessive capacitance. Transorbs have a lower "pass-through" voltage; not higher. Compromises - especially excess capacitance - make transorbs unacceptable for that application. Transorbs are used elsewhere such as on electric toilets. Since that protector - like all effective protectors - remain functional for decades even after hundreds of thousands of surges. When does a transorb degrade? When a naive tech does not first learn how to design with numbers.
Meanwhile, a transorb does nothing for the OP and his problem.
Like all protectors, sacrificing never provides effective protection. But sacrificing get the naive to recommend near zero protectors - and buy more. Undersizing a protector increases sales and profits. Then advertising gets the naive to recommend and buy more. Only the naive believe protectors work by sacrificing. About 100 surges with each storm. So you tell us each CO replaces tens of thousands of protectors after each thunderstorm? Of course not. Engineers designed the protection - not hearsay.
Protection is more than a Ditek. A Ditek, like any effective protector, is only as effective as its earth ground. If not properly installed, then its clamping voltage or response times can be excessive. The informed learn about impedance, equipotenial, GPR, metallic and longitudinal mode currents, where joules are absorbed, numbers that say what a protectors will not fail (sacrifice), and wny LV circuits are so robust (already have effective protection), You finally admitted that clamping voltages and response times are already more than sufficient for each protector. And that volltage and response times are mostly defined by how that protector is installed/connected. Protectors respond in nanoseconds. Surges do damage in microseconds, milliseconds or minutes. Again, those pesky numbers.
OP had damage both inside a detached garage and house. Classic damage when every wire is not properly earthed (directly or via a 'whole house' protector) at both ends. Apparently the OP had no properly earthed 'whole house' protector in a detached garage. That explains why he had damage in both garage and house. Even transorbs do not do what must exist to have protection - single point earth ground.
For those who need soundbytes to be informed: Properly sized and selected protectors never do protection by 'sacrificing'. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Even clamping voltages and response times are mostly defined by that connection.
dementeddigital
Active Member
DELInstallations said:
That's funny. I had drafted a post that I thought there was a good possibility that he was a chatbot, but deleted it because it seemed too far out. Now I'm not so sure.
NeverDie, in case you don't trust everything that westom says (I don't), I would agree that the SPD that you linked seems to be a good one.
