Elk or HAI for Lutron RA2 integration?

[wkearney99]

I need to add outside motion detectors for triggering lighting controlled via RadioRA2 switches.  I'm considering either an Elk or an HAI system.  I don't need either for security features or their keypads.  
 
I'm basically just looking for them to act as standalone logic for motion detection and schedules for RA2 control.  Along the way I can see using the equipment to also do irrigation control for lawn and garden sprinklers.
 
I may or may not use a PC-based system for other automation and media integration needs.  So I really don't need this system to be able to "do it all".  But I do want it to be able to do lighting & motion control on a set-and-forget sort of basis.  An embedded board in a can tends to have a lot fewer reliability issues than a PC-based solution.   And no, I do not want to wander down the road to other single-board solutions like a Raspberry Pi.  Those too are clever bits of stuff, just not quite what I'm after for my needs right now. 
 
So which one should I go with?  I've read a variety of posts critical of how RA2 buttons are handled in the Elk.  What're the limits of an HAI alternative?  
 
I'm not really looking to start a flame war here on which is better than the other overall. Nor am I looking for alternatives on lighting controls.  I've got a specific short-term goal and need that handled. And I'd like the selection for this short term goal to also leave open some options for future expansion.
 
So can someone point me to clear information on Elk vs HAI for RA2 integration?

 

[e2djonline]

I need to add outside motion detectors for triggering lighting controlled via RadioRA2 switches.  I'm considering either an Elk or an HAI system.  I don't need either for security features or their keypads.  
 
I'm basically just looking for them to act as standalone logic for motion detection and schedules for RA2 control.  Along the way I can see using the equipment to also do irrigation control for lawn and garden sprinklers.
 
I may or may not use a PC-based system for other automation and media integration needs.  So I really don't need this system to be able to "do it all".  But I do want it to be able to do lighting & motion control on a set-and-forget sort of basis.  An embedded board in a can tends to have a lot fewer reliability issues than a PC-based solution.   And no, I do not want to wander down the road to other single-board solutions like a Raspberry Pi.  Those too are clever bits of stuff, just not quite what I'm after for my needs right now. 
 
So which one should I go with?  I've read a variety of posts critical of how RA2 buttons are handled in the Elk.  What're the limits of an HAI alternative?  
 
I'm not really looking to start a flame war here on which is better than the other overall. Nor am I looking for alternatives on lighting controls.  I've got a specific short-term goal and need that handled. And I'd like the selection for this short term goal to also leave open some options for future expansion.
 
So can someone point me to clear information on Elk vs HAI for RA2 integration?

I have installed an Omni lle with RA2. You need to take into account how many lights you want to control. Even though the RA2 can support up to 100 addresses for a level 1. It depends on if you get the Omni Pro II which supports 256 lighting addresses or the Omni lle which only supports 64 lighting addresses. Once you figure out how many addresses you will need, it is straight forward from there. Once you set the system up with RA2 software, you take the integration report and match that will lighting addresses in PC Access. The Omni and RA2 system have been flawless since the install. Currently the lights are set to turn on with motion sensors and trigger with the alarm and driveway sensors. For you lawn or irrigation control, the Omni is great because you can integrate a relay board easily.

 

[az1324]

Why wouldn't you use it for your alarm panel?  You have another alarm panel that is better?
 
What about using built in RA2 timeclock + visor control receiver w/ motion detectors?

 

[Neurorad]

I don't know much about it, but HAI offers, or did offer, the Lumina controller - automation/control, minus the security.

 

[wkearney99]

Why wouldn't you use it for your alarm panel?  You have another alarm panel that is better?
 
What about using built in RA2 timeclock + visor control receiver w/ motion detectors?

 
We've got another alarm system installed.  Yes, one of these could do it, but for the sake of 'getting it working at the start' it's simpler to just have them separate.  Nothing about the wiring or equipment would prevent me from switching it all over to the system when the time comes.  But for now, I'm paying someone else to babysit the alarm stuff and I don't have to worry at all about it.  Yes, this wastes some money, I'm fine with that for now.
 
You wouldn't get any logic using the VCRX inputs.  I do plan on having one as I'd like to use my car's built-in remote.  I've got a Pico on a visor clip, and that works but using the built-in one would offer one less thing to get stolen out of the car.
 
My goal is to have a keypad button labeled "Motion" and have it act as a filter for whether to use motion control or not.  As in, the Motion button is lit and a sensor trips.  The Elk (or HAI) would receive the hard-wired motion sensor input, check whether the RA2 'Motion' button is active, compare that against possible day/time logic and handle turning on the appropriate outdoor lighting (and possibly any other actions desired, like emit a beep, e-mail or whatever).  Can't get that kind of flexibility with just the remote interface.  
 
Yes, I could do the logic with a PC-based system.  Assuming, of course, the interfacing with the sensors was all sorted out.  But, again, for many reasons that's not the route I want to pursue for this aspect of the system at the present time.  

 

[wkearney99]

I don't know much about it, but HAI offers, or did offer, the Lumina controller - automation/control, minus the security.

 

I have installed an Omni lle with RA2. You need to take into account how many lights you want to control. Even though the RA2 can support up to 100 addresses for a level 1. It depends on if you get the Omni Pro II which supports 256 lighting addresses or the Omni lle which only supports 64 lighting addresses. Once you figure out how many addresses you will need, it is straight forward from there. Once you set the system up with RA2 software, you take the integration report and match that will lighting addresses in PC Access. The Omni and RA2 system have been flawless since the install. Currently the lights are set to turn on with motion sensors and trigger with the alarm and driveway sensors. For you lawn or irrigation control, the Omni is great because you can integrate a relay board easily.

 
Excellent point.  Once all the shades are factored into it I'll be around 150 physical devices.  Toss in a few virtual keypads and I'll still be under 200 devices, but perhaps just barely.
 
I reviewed the Lumina web page and it looks like the Lumina Pro model would be required as I have more than 8 rooms and 64 lighting loads.  Or the Omni Pro II.
 
Where does HAI pricing stand in comparison to Elk gear?  From a quick bit of research the HAI stuff comes across as being a fair bit more expensive.  Is that accurate?
 
Also, since HAI is owned by Leviton what's the likelihood of their dropping support for non-Leviton gear?
 
My immediate programming needs aren't terribly complex, but I'd imagine there are going to be memory limitations with any of these systems.  Lighting loads is one thing, what're the next threshold of limitations I'd run up against with either an Elk or an HAI?

 

[az1324]

Well I don't know if this is workable but you could use the VCRX outputs to switch the motions which would then feed the VCRX inputs.  So a timeclock on the outputs plus your button to activate the outputs manually plus the inputs.
 
Your alarm-sitter can't babysit an ELK?

 

[wkearney99]

The point isn't to try to force a limited amount of RA2 gear to do something well beyond it's limits.  I'm willing to spend the money to get something more programmable for this, especially when dealing with lots of hardware I/O devices.  There's more coming besides just a few motion sensors.  Sprinkler control is another facet of this.
 
I deliberately chose to keep the alarm independent.  That's not going to change.  Nor do I want to get into a situation with an alarm integrator trying to handle the programming.  I have a pretty good idea what I want, but since it's a new house and this is all new gear that will likely change.  So having a standalone system that's open for me to do all the programming is what I'm after.  
 
Once this gets relatively stable then I'm going to look into more complex PC-based stuff like CQC.  And along the way I'll likely roll the alarm stuff back into either of these.  But meanwhile the basic alarm stuff "just works" and doesn't depend on, or get interfered with any of my other efforts.

 

[az1324]

Fair enough.  Though whenever I involve critical systems in my projects it definitely pushes them forward so that they actually get done.

 

[picta]

My goal is to have a keypad button labeled "Motion" and have it act as a filter for whether to use motion control or not.  As in, the Motion button is lit and a sensor trips.  The Elk (or HAI) would receive the hard-wired motion sensor input, check whether the RA2 'Motion' button is active, compare that against possible day/time logic and handle turning on the appropriate outdoor lighting (and possibly any other actions desired, like emit a beep, e-mail or whatever).  Can't get that kind of flexibility with just the remote interface.  
 
Yes, I could do the logic with a PC-based system.  Assuming, of course, the interfacing with the sensors was all sorted out.  But, again, for many reasons that's not the route I want to pursue for this aspect of the system at the present time.  

 
So as I understand your goal here, you want to have a flag "Motion" that you can use as condition in your lighting logic, correct? Then you can link a button to a "virtual" unit in RA2 and that unit will be on or off.  I do not know if it is possible to create a virtual device in RadioRA system, but if it is, you will not really need to track a button press. Therefore either Elk or HAI could handle the task. Elk is less expensive than HAI, mainly because you can buy individual modules for Elk, while HAI board has a lot of stuff built in. Both boards have similar memory. For beginning with simple setups, Elk would be the way to go. In the end though it will cost about the same when you get to replicate full HAI functionality. I think if you can afford it, it would be best to go with OmniPro2, as it has a better integration with your lighting system of choice. 

 

[e2djonline]

Excellent point.  Once all the shades are factored into it I'll be around 150 physical devices.  Toss in a few virtual keypads and I'll still be under 200 devices, but perhaps just barely.
 
I reviewed the Lumina web page and it looks like the Lumina Pro model would be required as I have more than 8 rooms and 64 lighting loads.  Or the Omni Pro II.
 
Where does HAI pricing stand in comparison to Elk gear?  From a quick bit of research the HAI stuff comes across as being a fair bit more expensive.  Is that accurate?
 
Also, since HAI is owned by Leviton what's the likelihood of their dropping support for non-Leviton gear?
 
My immediate programming needs aren't terribly complex, but I'd imagine there are going to be memory limitations with any of these systems.  Lighting loads is one thing, what're the next threshold of limitations I'd run up against with either an Elk or an HAI?

If you do not want security go with the Lumina Pro. The Omni and Lumina are identical except the Omni has the security enabled. 
 
I have not had much experience with ELK so i'm not sure what it includes. With the Lumina Pro can easily do everything you need to accomplish. 
 
As for pricing not sure really for ELK but for the Lumina is around $1300 for the controller. You will then need the serial adapter cable to connect the RA2 Main Repeater which is around $25. In general, HAI is going to cost more for the controller, but with ELK its more little pieces put together which will add up to about the same in the end.
 
HAI is owned by Leviton but will still be supporting most HAI gear. So far it looks like things are going to improve for HAI/Leviton Security and Automation. 
 
On the Lumina Pro, you get 1,500 lines of programing. That is more than enough for your needs. I an no where near the max of my OmniPro II. I have tons of programing including lights, thermostats, driveway sensor, security, music, garage door control, and much more. I think space should not be a concern. I am not sure on ELK what the limitations are on memory. 
 
Hope this helps!

 

[wkearney99]

What's the coding environment like for the Omni?  Is that their Automation Suite?  Like I mentioned, I can do things the hard way, but pretty tools do make it less effort when you're not hips-deep into programming the stuff every day. Day-in, day-out, yeah, GUI tools can sometimes get in the way.  But for the level of attention I expect to have for it would definitely benefit from a reasonably user-friendly programming tool.
 
Thanks for the Lumina/Omni comparison.  I figure it'd be better to get the security features for the if/when scenarios that might develop.  Better to have and not need than need and not have.
 
Likewise I agree that the pieces for an Elk do start tallying up close to the Omni.  What I haven't found out yet is which of them does a better (or worse) job of interfacing with the RA2 gear.  There sometimes end up being some little things that get left out when interfacing with 3rd-party gear, especially when that gear is also being actively developed.

 

[picta]

What do you mean by "better"? It all depends on what your goals are. Personally, I would choose HAI over Elk solely based on the fact that Elk does not support button presses, as using buttons as triggers is essential for me, but many people may not find it so essential. They may value the thermostat integration instead, while I do not care because I have omnistats. IMO, regardless of what hardware controller you end up choosing, to take a full advantage of the RA2 functionality you would have to add a software controller at some point.

 

[wkearney99]

Yeah, here's where we get into details.  I would expect to be able to handle button presses, but maybe I'm not clear on just what defines a "button press" in Elk parlance.  Care to explain or offer an example of how it didn't work for you?
 
I've not gotten into thermostats yet, but haven't heard favorable things about the RA thermostats.  We've got a geo-thermal setup with 3 units and 4 zones (one is split).  The little i do know about thermostats is that not all of them do an effective job of handling geo systems.  So for the first few months we'll be leaving the supplied setup in place.  Better to let it go through it's shake-down with the supplier gear before complicating it with fancier stuff.
 
As for 'full advantage' what is it you mean the hardware systems wouldn't handle?  
 
I realize that if I want to get into seriously complex conditional logic that using a PC system would probably give me a lot more flexibility.  I'm thinking there will be both types involved, the hardware for some stuff and software for others.  My thinking is the hardware runs the 'must haves' and the software is where I can play around.  

 

[picta]

I realize that if I want to get into seriously complex conditional logic that using a PC system would probably give me a lot more flexibility.  I'm thinking there will be both types involved, the hardware for some stuff and software for others.  My thinking is the hardware runs the 'must haves' and the software is where I can play around.  

 
That is exactly what I have, an OmniPro handles "fast and robust" logic, like motion sensors triggered events, occupancy and I/O, and the stuff that has to be operable 100% of the time, while the software controller handles more complex and exotic add-ons that are not used as often, or otherwise not implemented in HAI. Neither Elk nor HAI implement the full protocol available for high-end lighting systems, including RadioRA, button press being one example. They are also slow to update when the lighting manufacture expands their system, so the software is your friend in such cases. But most people are satisfied with main functionality. Some people do not even care about status feedback, which I consider a must in a lighting system.
 
I use button press to customize logic based on the button location, As an example, we have a recirculation water pump that can be turned on from various locations in the house, and it will run for the amount of time needed for water to reach that location depending on which button was pressed. I also use button press events to add logic to a lighting scene that is programmed into the button (like security or HVAC actions or shades, etc).
 
We have radiant heat in the house and omnistat handles it well, and possibly could be a candidate for geothermal system.