Elk or Omni Pro

[tmbrown97]

I take a different approach with my business - I sell the hardware at reasonable prices and charge my labor separately.  I'll even teach people how to do some of the work themselves - but I charge for the time I spend on it.  If they screw something up and need me to fix it, I do and charge T&M; I'll even teach them what they did wrong in the process.  It's worked well for me - often they call me because they want it done right and don't have time to mess with it themselves. 
 
Re: eKeypad - this is far more than just a 3rd party app - it's a partnership.  Jayson owns the eK parts but Elk supports him very closely and invites him to big events with them.  Last I heard, it's his full time gig.  There are continuous updates and the product works very well - I've been using it since the first release.  And I agree - even if it were internally developed, there'd still be a charge - just as there is for ElkRMS or PCAccess.

 

[ctay]

I understand that it is probably a tough business.  There are a lot of tough businesses.  I don't understand how having a business model that puts the cost in the wrong place makes it any easier. In my business I don't charge $50 for each sheet of paper, instead I charge for what I put on the paper.
 
I guess I don't understand the danger in selling a customer what they want. If it doesn't turn out like they want they can always pay to fix it can't they?

 

[ctay]

I take a different approach with my business - I sell the hardware at reasonable prices and charge my labor separately.  I'll even teach people how to do some of the work themselves - but I charge for the time I spend on it.  If they screw something up and need me to fix it, I do and charge T&M; I'll even teach them what they did wrong in the process.  It's worked well for me - often they call me because they want it done right and don't have time to mess with it themselves. 
 
Re: eKeypad - this is far more than just a 3rd party app - it's a partnership.  Jayson owns the eK parts but Elk supports him very closely and invites him to big events with them.  Last I heard, it's his full time gig.  There are continuous updates and the product works very well - I've been using it since the first release.  And I agree - even if it were internally developed, there'd still be a charge - just as there is for ElkRMS or PCAccess.

 
Good to know about eKeypad.  I haven't used it, just didn't like the idea of a 3rd party app.  Many of them seem to be reverse engineered instead of developed with the help of the manufacturer - good to hear this isn't one of them.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Most industries are like this.  I know when I take my Ford truck into my dealer, that they will charge way more for parts than I could have paid at my local auto stores.  Of course, I have the option of doing the work myself; but, depending on the complexity of the problem, I may not have the skill or specialized tools (another investment) required.

 

[ctay]

That is really my point. Ford will sell you the parts to DIY or to have some shade tree mechanic install if that is what you want. And they are happy to fix it if you screw it up. Lutron / Vantage / Creston won't even let me try. Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[JonW]

Good to know about eKeypad.  I haven't used it, just didn't like the idea of a 3rd party app.  Many of them seem to be reverse engineered instead of developed with the help of the manufacturer - good to hear this isn't one of them.

 
I know HAI (and likely Elk) publish a protocol specification for the panels, so things are not reverse engineered.  Sure, the docs lag behind features in the panels so some things might need to be figured out by trial and error, but the majority of the interfacing info is fully published.

 

[pete_c]

I picked the HAI panel over the Elk panel probably mostly on the size of the footprint.
 
That said though I started to utilize Elk products way before using HAI products. 
 
I do see that most likely the "new" players in the combo alarm / automation world (albeit Comcast & AT&T and all) will most likely provide the end user with a self install kit; saving them the cost of installation; plug n play like similiar to what they have been doing today with their routers or combo devices.  Thus automation for anyone willing to pay a low cost (?) monthly stipend.
 
The other side with be the propietary where the end user sees no grey areas and pays whatever those costs may be (monthly plus the main bucket costs).
 
That whole car thing now has become unique and its getting a bit more difficult (newest automobile doesn't have a dipstick).   A couple of years ago neighbors wife asked me what it was that she was seeing on the HU of her automobile telling her to do something with the car.  It was a graphics / "cartoon" video of sorts depicting the changing of the oil on the vehicle; you had to watch because the plot seemed a bit detailed; such that you wouldn't miss anything.

 

[ano]

I caution everyone to realize the world is changing.  There are companies that are strictly "pro" like Control4, that won't give a DIY guy like me the time-of-day, and there are "semi-pro" systems like HAI and ELK that are happy to sell systems to the DIY community to get more systems out there.  I've called HAI for help on several occasions and they have always been happy to help me.  Its also interesting to note that HAI and ELK system hardware is significantly cheaper than the "pro-only" hardware you can buy, which likely is due to the higher volume that HAI and ELK can maintain over the pro-only hardware which is likely sold at lower volumes.
 
I also see over the years the negativity that is sometimes reflected on DIY users from the pros, because there is always the feeling that we somehow took away business from them.  I really don't see it that way at all, because I never would (and probably couldn't afford) to have a pro install the system I have.  Rather HAI got me as an incremental customer (and a good one) without the pro install. 
 
I certainly have the utmost respect for the pro installers, and I'm always amazed that they can make money when I know how much time and labor is involved to customize systems which I'm not sure customers always realize.
 
But as I started off saying, the business is changing.  Equipment, and technology is getting better and cheaper, and a new breed of companies are putting out cheaper and easier to use hardware for home automation.  LED bulbs like the Philips Hue no longer require special switches or an automation controller, they can be controlled by an iPhone.  Just think back, 5 years ago, what would the total system cost be of a system that could control a light bulb in your house from anywhere in the world on a phone?  I bet a bit more than $100.
 
These lower cost hardware solutions are now bringing on other new competitors.  Sprint, AT&T, Verizon, ADT, Trane, and others are now suddenly in the home automation business, because lower hardware costs are now making it profitable for them to provide these services.  This is not only bad news for the pros, because they might be loosing some business to these guys, but its bad news for all of us, because each of these companies are creating walled-gardens to funnel the business to them and keep others out. You buy a Trane AC unit, but don't want to use THEIR home automation solution, and you will find they don't make life easy for you.  Walled-gardens are only good for those building the walls.

 

[Del91574]

That is really my point. Ford will sell you the parts to DIY or to have some shade tree mechanic install if that is what you want. And they are happy to fix it if you screw it up. Lutron / Vantage / Creston won't even let me try. Doesn't make sense to me.

 
As an installing dealer for both as well as the other components listed, my items to toss back are this:
 
I charge reasonably for the materials involved, hardware and expendables, the larger cost is knowledge and ability, combined with proprietary hardware needed to program or connect. Some product lines, do I agree with the closed nature, not really, but the end result is these systems require far more programming and knowledge than a DIY or even most trade people are used to. In a lot of cases, it keeps the unauthorized or unqualified persons from causing more harm than good.
 
In the case of an auto, now that there are many smart components out there that reside on a data bus within the vehicle, component replacement on the electrical side isn't possible unless you are a dealer....want to replace a radio with an exact OEM unit, not going to happen. Window and lock switch stopped working, same deal, the vehicle needs to be connected to the dealer's OEM computer back to the manufacturer. In that case, it's very easy for the dealer to not warranty X or Y. There's also plenty of arguments of "you touched the ZBC valve, and now my clapper puller isn't working properly" in the case of a vehicle, it's a very easy delineation of where the liability or breakdown occurs, a car doesn't have custom (usually) programming involved to get the lights to turn on or the wipers to work, or even to simply start and run. There's also a huge difference between replacing a simple failed mechanical component compared to the entire computer system has an issue.
 
In the case of these vendors, a great portion of the hardware needs to be configured to function. If you, as an end user, wants to do this, more power to you, but you should also be expected to pay for the items needed to complete these installs, be it software, security dongles, interfaces, etc. I have to pay for them, so why should a "shadetree" DIY get them for free...I don't like the fact that I need to pay for training or other items, but it's part of doing business. The larger item I run across is warranty on components and the install...in the commercial world, with interrelated systems, if you touch a component in another system, even though it connects to your hardware, it's game over on a warranty. I have manufacturers, that even though I can buy parts, if I need support, I either need a support agreement paid for, or worse, a valid and up to date training certificate, which usually costs a significant amount to obtain, just to ask about jumper J2.
 
It's not charging $50 for a sheet of paper, but in my world, it's $1 for the paper, $5 to get it to your site, $2 to get it loaded into your custom document feeder, which required $20 in custom drivers and handlers to function with your latest I-droid Wintoaster software, then a day with the manufacturer to get the printer itself customized to work the the feeder, then 10-15 hours of configuration/trial and error to get all the settings correct and functioning so the printer makes the documents you choose to print out end up looking just like a hallmark card.

 

 

[ctay]

DELInstallations - I appreciate your perspective.  It seems to me that the CI world is actually very similar to the contract IT professional world.  Some people want you present a complete solution, some want you to make what they have work.  The firm I hire to handle my company IT bills me by the hour for their work and will work with whatever I ask them to.  They will make a recommendation that I replace this or that - they can offer to purchase the item for me or I can get it myself.  The interesting thing is I usually get a better price on hardware purchasing through them than I do buying on my own - so I frequently buy through them.  I always pay for every hour that they are here and I'm happy to do it because they are adding value to my network.  
 
Contrast that with a wide spread CI business model.  Charge large markups on product, bill for programming time and build in cushions to cover call backs in the event that they need to come back.  Prices are high and only affordable in the very high end.  This keeps the market small thus adding to the necessity of high markups to pay for all the down time waiting for the next client. Clients have no ability to competitively shop the commodity aspects of the work - ie the products installed. 
 
I don't think the two business are really all that different. What makes me willing to pay for one and not the other - I think -  is the feeling of choice.

 

[Del91574]

Exactly.
 
Some want you to provide the widget and get it working, with no outside influence, but others have a dead set mentality of piecemealing the install or not considering the larger picture....I have X or Y existing, why do I need your Puller Clapper product, just get my Doodle Box working.
 
I believe there's a disconnect between the IT world and the CE installation world. There are similarities, but the largest item I see is the spec or theory of operation is so vague or people don't simply understand what they really want until after the product is built out and they live with it for a period of time. In that case, in the contracting world, it'll either be callled out as a warranty issue unless the contract is ironclad as to what is covered/not covered...assuming the proof is there the unit was functioning 100% when installed and handed off.
 
My end is I mark up the products somewhat to cover X-Z of incidentals, but the job itself needs to have some sort of profit margin in order for a company to continue to install and stay in business, and in the custom world, it's not a cut and dry "check this setting/box" and be done, so there is some padding, I'm sure, but to what extent depends on your specific market. The return trips and configuration changes need to be factored in, because usually a line item that states "$X per return trip after system working" will lose the job every time....I can't tell you how many simple and complex tweaks are done to a system after it is brought online...large items like zones or groups, scenes, all the way down to nomenclature or the background color or button shape on a GUI. I believe there is always going to be an expectation of "I paid $XY for the system, I want it to perform exactly or as close to as I thought it would in my head" no matter what is involved on the back end, I think it's part of the consumer nature and mindset.
 
In my realm, which is mainly the fire/security industry, this keeps unqualified "trunk slammers" from getting in on specific product lines, which hopefully makes for a more level playing field among the authorized vendors, as well as (hopefully) insures the installing parties are qualified  and trained to properly configure the system(s). There's a MSRP for the hardware which I'm sure most vendors adhere close to and then the variable is the labor. The one factor that these companies add on to the system that I do not like is a minimum annual order value, otherwise they can pull you as an authorized dealer.
 
In my end, we commonly are the "parts and smarts" with others doing the heavy wiring portion/labor on the job, so in actuality, the only variable is whoever is doing the terminations and programming....

That said, in these days of Ebay, Amazon and Google, a lot of dealer only products are being resold, serials scratched out, even MSRP contracts being broken (I think just to maintain a dealership based on total product purchased quota systems) and almost anything can be had for a price, but some items, I see it more for a manufacturer to keep their name from being dragged through the mud on a mucked up install, as the people specifying the product line are anticipating a certain level of performance and reliability. When you hear the name Lutron vs. X-10 for lighting control, what sort of quality and performance does each name illicit...I've seen bad Lutron installs and full featured X-10, but the name itself is what drives it's sale.

 

[Dean Roddey]

The commonly heard reasoning behind putting more of the margin in the gear, that I've heard plenty of anyway, is that many of them find it easier to sell a thing than sell their time. You can't prove how much time you spent doing something or the expertise required to do what you did in that time. But gear is concrete and the prices are well defined. You are either going to buy this and that, or you aren't. If you are, there's X amount of margin involved. And if it's pro-only, then you don't end up in an argument with the customer about why he can buy it for whatever percent less from some nameless online store, and then you suddenly have to start charging more for your time to make it up.

 

[ctay]

I'm sorry but that sounds a lot like "my time isn't worth what I want to charge for it so I have to make it hard for customers to figure out what they're paying me."

It should be about adding value. If you are adding value, customers are willing to pay for it. If you aren't way am I paying you?

I can see why a CI would want to have an arrangement where they are totally protected from competition but why would a manufacturer want to restrict their market?

 

[Dean Roddey]

Well, no, I'm sure the installer thinks his time is quite valuable. It's the issue of contention with the customer about paying for it. Why even introduce that element if it you don't have to? it's already a difficult enough dance.
 
Manufacturers restrict their market, I presume, because they know that,whoever does the installation, if it doesn't work their product and their company is who takes the publicity hit. And they also know of course that the DIY community for anything remotely complex is extremely small, and it's also very unwilling to spend much money on the whole. In order to get that very small and very price conscious market, they'd inevitablye lose a lot of the pro market, which is the only way they can really make the kind of money that would allow them to be a successful company. So it would likely be a net loss for them, not a gain.
 
Believe me, our being DIY friendly doesn't help us in the pro community. And we have to walk a very difficult line. We have to have a pricing model that will work for pros, but we can't sell it to DIYers for less. But DIYers are so price conscious that we are probably out of the price range for a lot of them. It's a tough thing to deal with.

 

[fcwilt]

The commonly heard reasoning behind putting more of the margin in the gear, that I've heard plenty of anyway, is that many of them find it easier to sell a thing than sell their time. You can't prove how much time you spent doing something or the expertise required to do what you did in that time. But gear is concrete and the prices are well defined. You are either going to buy this and that, or you aren't. If you are, there's X amount of margin involved. And if it's pro-only, then you don't end up in an argument with the customer about why he can buy it for whatever percent less from some nameless online store, and then you suddenly have to start charging more for your time to make it up.

 
That's interesting and opposite my experience. I find selling expertise much easier.
 
In the world of the internet where a little research can get the answer to so many questions selling hardware with a big markup is getting tougher.
 
Yes many customers wont care but many other customers, if they find you charging $5000 for a $2500 TV set, are not going to have nice thoughts about you. <g>