Even Staples getting into HA

[wkearney99]

Yeah, well, the way that's written doesn't build the greatest confidence.  
 
I'm very curious to know just how many individual shades can be associated with this system and what grouping of them is possible.  As in, I may have upwards of 40 shade units.  Some may be 'grouped' in sets from 3 up to 9.  What kind of control would I have over the 40 individual units?  What kind of control would I have over them as parts of groups?  What sorts of 'scenes' are possible?  Timed?  Opening to specific positions?
 
There's going to be a 'limit' somewhere and I cannot risk moving forward on a house full of shades without knowing EXACTLY where the limits are.  
 
That and not being able to operate locally without internet connectivity is definitely a show-stopper.  I could understand if the apps wouldn't work remotely, but no local control?  That would definitely make it a no-buy.

 

[az1324]

Yes no local control without the cloud is quite poor. You would still be able to operate them with Picos. Based on what they are saying, the system supports at least 100 clear connect devices. The limits for # of preset positions and/or scenes per shade is a good question. Really this was about big sales/licensing contracts and nobody was concerned about who was going to provide documentation/support.

 

[wkearney99]

Sure, I can understand HOW the situation got to this point, But no docs online anywhere yet?  That's pretty weak.  Not even anything on Linksys' site for the hub itself!  I sent a request for info via the Zonoff.com website.  No idea if they'll reply.
 
I'm just scrambling to decide whether to consider it for just the shade control and avoid spending quite a lot more money on RA2-integrated QS units.  

 

[ChrisCicc]

Guys, this is the same as the Lowes Iris system. They are more interested in your data than they are anything else (in Lowes case, that is all they are interested in, as relayed to me personally by the head of Iris himself). See this from Zonoff's website:

The Zonoff Cloud Software and Services ... deliver advanced analytics, and ultimately, increase revenues per user for Zonoff’s Channel Partners.
 
They have over 20 people on their team, yet they've only managed limited protocol support (they promise everything but list little), and so-so quality as Eric states: "it is very immature in capability and parts are very buggy. The Android client likes to crash and lose state often. For things like Hue and Dlink cameras, one is way better off using the direct interfaces rather than using the Staples Connect one."
 
That tells me they've been more focused on the analytics side of things than they are the automation side of things.

 

[wkearney99]

Staples & Iris, 'same as' based on what assumptions?  Same target market?  Sure.  
 
But I've not come across anything that claims their based on the same underlying tech.  Which is potentially good and bad, as Iris hasn't been without it's share of hassles.
 
As for what the zonoff folks might be pitching, that's understandable from that perspective.  Not necessarily what actual end-users might want to hear, however.  But certainly 'buzzword laden' for appealing to the distribution chain.
 
My interest was more about their claim to being able to control the Serena products... something Lutron's been saying aren't designed for control.  Yeah, well, that seemed like utter bullshit from the git-go.  Especially given their initial products at that price-point that WERE controllable.  Then they fast-forward a bit with jacked up prices, a new name and claims of no integration for it.  Seemed fishy then, and even more so now.  But without something that pins down just exactly how many of the shades can be controlled in a given network it's hard to figure out what's going on.

 

[az1324]

He means "same as" in terms of underlying corporate motivations.

The main problem is that people like Lutron and are looking for an affordable DIY Lutron system. Hopes were pinned on this line, that it might be something it wasn't meant to be. Coal in the stocking again this year.

As for Linksys, it is a bit surprising that the hub is branded that way instead of Staples Connect (by Linksys). I wouldn't really expect any product information on their site, because they are basically acting as a contract manufacturer here. The Linksys name is just used to give the consumer confidence in the hardware.

Hope still exists that a local API can be hacked into existence and the Hub can be used as a dumb gateway without the cloud.

 

[EricHacker]

I don't have any Lutron devices yet, so I can't comment on creating scenes. It seems relatively easy to create Activities that contain multiple devices, though each device has to be controlled individually within the Activity. There are frustrating limits to Activities currently.
 
For instance, lets say you have six shades on the front of your house that you want to go down at sunset, and you want three phillips hue lights to come on at the same time. You can do that in one activity. Now suppose the holidays are coming and you want to stop the shades from coming all the way down because of candle lights in the windows and you want a green tint on the hue lights because you've had too much eggnog. You'll have to edit each individual device within the activity to get it to do things differently.
 
Suppose you want to do the same thing on command. That will require you to redo it all from scratch as there is no way to manually launch an automatic activity. There also is no way to copy and paste as it is all the primitive GUI.
 
These are all issues that will hopefully be resolved in the future. The first iPhone did not allow for any third party development other than a web app. Phillips has released an open API for the hue and hopefully the other vendors will see the light (pun intended) and follow suit.
 
Another bug: I had to reboot (unplug and plug back in) the HA1000 this morning as it was not correctly communicating with the cloud. All the lights on the HA1000 were on indicating it was fine. I could ping the HA1000 so it was on the network. I didn't have time to run Wireshark to see what packets were being sent out. I will try to capture it better if it does it again.
 
This was important today because of the weather. I need to be able to start the electric heater under my tractor an hour before leaving work so that it will start when I get home. That way I can plow my steep driveway if there has been too much snow to get the car up. Obviously if it craps out again I'm stuck waiting which is what I would do without all this stuff. But the whole reason to do this automation is to make things like this possible. For now I'll get in the habit of checking on things before I leave so that I can minimize the reliability issues, but I hate having to be that paranoid all the time.
 

 

 

[wkearney99]

The lack of functionality without a live web link is an absolute show-stopper. That's just stupid.

The box ought to be able to at least carry out it's scheduled and locally controlled tasks when the link is down. That's just unsafe otherwise. One has to wonder if it's not borne out of some subscription requirements... As in, if the box can't get it's authorization each and every minute of the day then it won't function at all. That might seem delightfully profitable to the management creeps but it makes the product dead in the water, sales-wise.

Even more expensive things like a Tivo will still execute it's tasks without a link. Eventually it times out, and nags you about it, but it keeps working meanwhile.

No subscription service is worth any kind of money if it's THAT draconian about it.

Besides, nobody's network uplink is THAT reliable.

 

[neillt]

The main problem is that people like Lutron and are looking for an affordable DIY Lutron system. Hopes were pinned on this line, that it might be something it wasn't meant to be. Coal in the stocking again this year.
 

 
You know, they could fix this in an instant if they didn't guard RadioRA2's software like it has nuclear launch codes.
 
I have no problem paying a Lutron distributor for RA2 devices, I think the build quality and the keypads are fantastic, and worth the cost over say Simply Automated UPB dimmers.  But having to call out someone and pay them just because they have the special software, even though I would just be telling them what to click on is insane.  Yes I have already taken the courses online, and after all of that I received the "design only" RA2 software.  I have to front 1k of money to Lutron to just get the "hobbled" version.
 
I wish Lutron would just realize that making the software available does not destroy the dealer paradigm.  The people who would use it and not call a dealer (like many of us here) already went with another technology.  They can only gain business.

 

[EricHacker]

The lack of functionality without a live web link is an absolute show-stopper. That's just stupid.
 

 
I have to test just what is available and what is not when the cloud is not connected. I know that the web browser interface is strictly cloud, so I can't push a command from my PC when the network is down. I hope the HA1000 will still carry out programs when disconnected or that's a major issue.

 

[az1324]

One has to wonder if it's not borne out of some subscription requirements.

Well it does minimize the amount of development and engineering that is done on the hub hardware/software and allows costs to be reduced. Developing on the cloud is much easier.
 
 

I have no problem paying a Lutron distributor for RA2 devices, I think the build quality and the keypads are fantastic, and worth the cost over say Simply Automated UPB dimmers.

I wish Lutron would just realize that making the software available does not destroy the dealer paradigm.

They should also allow Maestro Wireless (same build quality) and now these new Pico/Caseta devices to be used as well. Cheaper dimmers would make it easier to accept expensive keypads.

[Some] Dealers are very fragile creatures. They were very disappointed when Lutron opened their public forum since it wasn't private/hidden/dealer-only.
 

I have to test just what is available and what is not when the cloud is not connected. I know that the web browser interface is strictly cloud, so I can't push a command from my PC when the network is down. I hope the HA1000 will still carry out programs when disconnected or that's a major issue.

Please do. The info from CS was that the app will not work at all but it is possible the timers/triggers may still function.

 

[wkearney99]

You know, they could fix this in an instant if they didn't guard RadioRA2's software like it has nuclear launch codes.
 
I have no problem paying a Lutron distributor for RA2 devices, I think the build quality and the keypads are fantastic, and worth the cost over say Simply Automated UPB dimmers.  But having to call out someone and pay them just because they have the special software, even though I would just be telling them what to click on is insane.  Yes I have already taken the courses online, and after all of that I received the "design only" RA2 software.  I have to front 1k of money to Lutron to just get the "hobbled" version.
 
I wish Lutron would just realize that making the software available does not destroy the dealer paradigm.  The people who would use it and not call a dealer (like many of us here) already went with another technology.  They can only gain business.

 
Agreed on all counts, but this perhaps deserves it's own thread as to not distract from the issues surrounding the Staples effort.

 

[aharding]

Well, the Honeywell Z-Wave Thermostat is half the price of the Honeywell Lutron Thermostat. They looks identical.

 

[wkearney99]

Well, the Honeywell Z-Wave Thermostat is half the price of the Honeywell Lutron Thermostat. They looks identical.

 
I'm guessing the 'smart thermostat' market is well on it's way to a shakeup.  The glaring issues of common hardware and gouging for 'features' is going to run into trouble as the public starts asking "WTF?"  There's only so much you can 'get away with' as a vendor with faced with competition from cripplingly cheap units made offshore.  Instead of pushing the envelope on new developments stuff like the Nest comes in and takes away 'brand value' while cheap stuff drains profits.  It's a shame Honeywell's all over the map with their stuff, too many devices and too much channel confusion. 

 

[EricHacker]

Well, the Honeywell Z-Wave Thermostat is half the price of the Honeywell Lutron Thermostat. They looks identical.

 

And the Trane (Nexia) Z-Wave Thermostat is currently on sale at Amazon for almost half the cost on the Honeywell one at Staples. I haven't done a full feature comparison, but the Trane does the job I need it to. Also, Amazon currently stopped selling the Honeywell model directly due to customer reported issues.
 
I got the Trane connected to my HA1000 just fine the other night once I figured out the wiring issues to get the thermostat to power up. The Trane was programmed just fine through the Staples Connect hub.
 
Those who want to shop competitively will be able to find deals with widely adopted protocols like Z-Wave because they are all compatible even if not directly supported. So I can by a Nexia branded Z-Wave thermostat and lock on sale at Amazon for a lot less than the similar units on sale through Staples.
 
And for those bargain hunters, Staples regularly has coupons for 10% or 15% off any one item right now. That's probably the only way to get a discount on something like Lutron Caseta or Phillips Hue which seem to be competitively priced at Staples.