Getting started ELK and HAI

[rsw686]

My house has a First Alert 148C, which is basically a rebranded Vista 15. I'm looking at replacing this with an ELK M1 and HAI OmniPro II. I also want to replace the two thermostats and add a few UPB switches to control the lights. I want to keep this around $2k to start and add devices later as money permits.

I like the ELK Navigator touch screen as the bezel is small and the interface looks modern. However from what I've read you can't change the thermostat temp. The HAI 5.7e touchscreens are over priced and the bezel looks huge, but it can control the thermostats and even view IP cameras. I like that HAI has everything basically on one board. With ELK I need to purchase the ethernet interface, the retriofit data base hub, and the upb interface. Am I correct that I don't need the equivelant of the retriot fit hub with HAI to hook up more than two keypads with 4 conductor wire?

I would like to receive email alerts from the panel without a third party program. I know the ELK can do this. On the HAI website they make it sounds like you need their PC software running for the alerts to be sent. Can anyone confirm this?

My current alarm has two keypads. I have a third keypad prewire by the front door. I've never put a keypad there as the front door is glass and you can see the alarm status indicator. I read with the ELK the keypad can turn off after 60 seconds. Does this option work as advertised and with what keypad models? I'm looking for a keypad where you can't tell the system status without pressing a button. Does HAI have any option like this?

As far as thermostats I want them to be hardwired. I've looked at HAI and RCS. What I'm not sure about is how thermostat program interacts with the HAI or ELK panel. If I program the schedules and then override the temp with the HAI or ELK I'm assuming that is the same as pressing the temp button. At the next schedule interval will it revert back to the thermostat program schedule? How do most configure this? Do they go with a basic thermostat and create the program in the HAI or ELK system?

I'm also not 100% on the UPB switches. They looked like the best option as they work with both ELK and HAI. I have also looked at RadioRA and ZWave. I breifly looked at Insteon, but HAI isn't compatible. However the ISY99i is intriguing with what it can do. With the ELK only supporting around 500 program statements it might be nice to have extra capabitiy. It is hard to estimate how my program statements I will need.

 

[rsw686]

I forgot to mention my current keypads have a one gang boxed mounted verticially. The ELK Navigator instructions mention it needs a horizontally mounted box. Anybody have luck mounting this to a vertical box? Would it work with the optional backbox? The other ELK and HAI keypads looks to use vertical mounted boxes.

 

[tmbrown97]

1. If you only have 4-wire runs, then you would need DBHR for more than 2 with Elk; I can't speak for HAI. Another thing I can't speak to with HAI is distributed panels; with Elk I can keep a sub-panel in the garage with another set of inputs/outputs which is very useful.

I don't know about the navigator issues, but with thermostat setups - you can either have the Elk tell the thermostat which mode to change to (home, away, vacation) and let the thermostat run the program, or you can do as you said - change the temp and the thermostat will continue its programming at the next timed interval; or you can disable programs in the thermostat and do it all via the Elk. I do the latter - with my previous HAI and my current RCS (RCS is phasing out these types of products - I'd go HAI all the way).

UPB - status tracking in UPB is a limitation of the technology itself. HAI has a workaround using their HLC mode (which can be done with other manufacturer's switches too - you're not stuck with HAI brand); Elk unfortunately has no good solution. I don't care that much about status until I finally get around to my touchscreens - and for those I'll use Elve - it is already integrated with my lights and does a great job tracking status.

 

[picta]

Many of your questions have been asked and answered here before, but usually the best solution for you will depend on the specifics of your situation. On a high level, Elk and HAI are HA controllers centered around a security system, while ISY is a controller centered around lighting. If lighting is your priority, you should look into what technology will work best in your house. Do your outlets have neutral wire? If not, this will restrict you to very specific products. If you like Insteon, then ISY and Elk will be your solution. If you want to have automated locks, then Z-wave or zigbee are the technology to consider. Both Elk and HAI will support hard wired thermostats. As for the wall keypads, once you get into automation, you'll use them a lot less, as there is a variety of interfaces you could control your systems from (phone, tablets, PCs, etc.). HAI has inexpensive keypads you could use instead of the omnitouch panel, and they will work with 4 wires. Omnitouch will need cat5 at a minimum. HAI cannot send email notifications from the panel, you'll have to run additional software for that. Many HAI users would love to see this feature added.

IMO, the Elk is better suited for a newbee as it is an expandable system and you can pay less upfront while adding components as your needs expand. HAI is a better system for mature installations, but you'll have to pay up-front for it. For example, if you decide to add locks, you'll have to buy additional module for Elk, but in HAI you'll have the functionality included for free. RadioRA module for ELK is about $300, but its a part of HAI package. In many cases people mix different lighting technologies, as no single one exists that will cover all circumstances.

 

[JoshFerg]

Both systems are very good, and either can accomplish what you want with good programming.

I would recommend looking at the programming software and see which one seems more intuitive to you.

I've installed thousands of upb switches on homes of all sizes without any problems. I highly recommend them.

 

[rsw686]

Thanks for the feedback! It looks like I need to go with the HAI OmniPro and UPB switches or the Elk M1 with the ISY994i and Insteon switches. Otherwise I need a PC based solution to track the status of UPB switches. Say I go with the Elk M1 and UPB switches and throw Elve into the mix. Will I be able to see the appropriate status from the Elk Navigator touch screen and control the lights like when using the ISY994i and Insteon?

 

[JoshFerg]

I'm an HAI guy, so I'm not sure about Elk. UPB is a 2-way protocol, so in theory it should work... When a UPB device receives a command it will process it and send a response that it was successful.

 

[rsw686]

I'm an HAI guy, so I'm not sure about Elk. UPB is a 2-way protocol, so in theory it should work... When a UPB device receives a command it will process it and send a response that it was successful.

From the post above and what I've been reading the HAI uses HLC to see the status of linked UPB switches. The Elk doesn't support HLC. What I like about the UPB switches is that you can disable the dimmer and make the switch on/off. I have a bunch of non dimmable CFLs installed and don't want to replace them all. I'm waiting on LED lighting to drop in price.

Let me ask you about the HAI keypad and how it mounts. My exisiting keypads are attached to one gang low voltage boxes. Will it just bolt right up? Also can you have the keybad screen and ready/arm LED turn off?

This is a tough choice. I've done a bunch of reading on various sites and through the manuals and I'm still undecided. I've read a number of negative comments on Insteon, but these look from a few years back before they had the dual band devices. I'm wondering if their new stuff is near the reliability of UPB. The Elk M1 with ISY994i seems like a nice combo and the Insteon RemoteLinc is neat.

 

[tmbrown97]

There's a lot of detail about UPB in my signature as a protocol, and I think in there I explain why UPB loses status on links.

Here's the basic concept - if you initiate a single load, either remotely or via the switch, it can report back its status. However, with links, it's a different story. Each switch can listen for a number of links - usually 16. Each switch can transmit links however it's programmed. The problem is, the transmitting switch has no idea how many other switches are receiving that link; and each switch that receives the link only knows what it's programmed to do, and has no idea how many other switches are listening for that same link.

Here's why that matters - in UPB there's no real collision control; and with support of 256 devices IIRC, say an All Off command was issues on a large network, you could now have 256 devices attempting to transmit at the same time - and without collision control built in, the whole thing will just die out as noise and nothing will update.

The way everyone gets around this is by somehow learning which devices are affected by which links and then polling each affected device after the link is complete. Elve, for instance, uses an upload of your Upstart export or will auto-discover your whole network.

HAI goes a step further with their proprietary HLC mode which is a specific organization of rooms and links and use of the UPB protocol in their special way that makes it easier for it to keep track of what's going on and what to poll. I haven't used it personally but it seems to work well and can be adapted to any UPB switch, plus people can get more advanced by using Upstart if they want.

Elk's explanation for why they don't do it is purely a lack of system resources.

So - with Elk and a navigator, you'll see a light's accurate status if it was activated directly via automation or by the switch, but not if it was turned on/off via a link. I know that using software like Elve I can trigger a status update, but the protocol doesn't seem to support sending a broadcast status update - only an update back to Elve, so the Elk doesn't "see" it.

If this is an important issue, I can probably do a little bit of testing to confirm but the last time I spent 5 minutes on it, it didn't look like there was a way even with a controller like Elve to get the accurate status back into the Elk - I may poke around a little more tonight after the kids go to bed. We do use links in my house and it's never been much of an issue for the status even through eKeypad.

 

[rsw686]

Work2Play, I read through the UPB link in your signature. It does some nice to know the real status for remote control with eKeypad. I had also read if the Elk thinks the switch is off, it won't let you send the off command unless you toggle the switch. Instead of creating links between switches it sounds possible to program the Elk to act on the switch and send the command to other switches. Then the status would reflect correctly. You mentioned that UPB has no collision avoidance. Insteon does look to have collision avoidence. I wonder how it handles multiple switches being turned on at once.

I see why people go with the PC based solution. I just liked the simplicity of the hardware based solution. I also don't like that the Elve software must be activated. Let's say in a few years if something happened with Codecore I wouldn't be able to reinstall Elve. Do you have the UPB PIM connected to the Elve PC or do you access it through the Elk. If connected to the PC I'm hoping it would work with a Sena LS110 serial to ethernet adapter. If I went that route I would prefer Elve to be a VM on my ESXi box.

 

[ano]

My house has a First Alert 148C, which is basically a rebranded Vista 15. I'm looking at replacing this with an ELK M1 and HAI OmniPro II. I also want to replace the two thermostats and add a few UPB switches to control the lights. I want to keep this around $2k to start and add devices later as money permits.

I like the ELK Navigator touch screen as the bezel is small and the interface looks modern. However from what I've read you can't change the thermostat temp. The HAI 5.7e touchscreens are over priced and the bezel looks huge, but it can control the thermostats and even view IP cameras. I like that HAI has everything basically on one board. With ELK I need to purchase the ethernet interface, the retriofit data base hub, and the upb interface. Am I correct that I don't need the equivelant of the retriot fit hub with HAI to hook up more than two keypads with 4 conductor wire?

I would like to receive email alerts from the panel without a third party program. I know the ELK can do this. On the HAI website they make it sounds like you need their PC software running for the alerts to be sent. Can anyone confirm this?

My current alarm has two keypads. I have a third keypad prewire by the front door. I've never put a keypad there as the front door is glass and you can see the alarm status indicator. I read with the ELK the keypad can turn off after 60 seconds. Does this option work as advertised and with what keypad models? I'm looking for a keypad where you can't tell the system status without pressing a button. Does HAI have any option like this?

As far as thermostats I want them to be hardwired. I've looked at HAI and RCS. What I'm not sure about is how thermostat program interacts with the HAI or ELK panel. If I program the schedules and then override the temp with the HAI or ELK I'm assuming that is the same as pressing the temp button. At the next schedule interval will it revert back to the thermostat program schedule? How do most configure this? Do they go with a basic thermostat and create the program in the HAI or ELK system?

I'm also not 100% on the UPB switches. They looked like the best option as they work with both ELK and HAI. I have also looked at RadioRA and ZWave. I breifly looked at Insteon, but HAI isn't compatible. However the ISY99i is intriguing with what it can do. With the ELK only supporting around 500 program statements it might be nice to have extra capabitiy. It is hard to estimate how my program statements I will need.

I actually had a VISTA a long time ago and went to an Omni Pro II. Let me take a stab at your unanswered questions.
The Omni Pro II can hook to a large number of keypads with no additional hardware. Touchscreens can require some additional hardware for video, but keypads don't and you can mix as many touchscreens and keypads as you want. Keep in mind power and backup power. I run some keypads with an alternative power supply for safety.

The Omni can't send email alerts by itself, but it requires a program running on a PC or server. WebLink on a Windows Home Server can do it, so can Snaplink running on any PC in your house. But there is a better way. Who ever monitors your alarm can send you emails. I use NextAlarm and they have many email types. Want an email if your kids don't deactivate your alarm by a certain time each day, they can do it.

HAI has many thermostats, and I agree, go with wired if you can. Of course you can set the temp, you can monitor when your AC is running, see your humidity, etc. you name it.

UPB is great, but there are many options. The HAI panel can run in HLC mode, but it doesn't have to. I personally don't use HLC. And all switches report their status. I also have Zigbee which I use for door locks, and HAI suports many different standards. You can actually mix and match. There are many pros and cons to each so make sure you understand them before jumping in, but UPB is a good choice for lighting control.

One final thing, you didn't mention it, but consider also adding a PC based HA control system as well. I use CQC, but there is HomeSeer and others. They can add a whole bunch of functionality that ELK and HAI lack. You can add it at a later time, but do keep it in mind.

 

[dgage]

I have also been looking at HAI and ELK for a security system and the start of a home automation system. To me they both seem to have their strengths and weaknesses. Each will do what you want it to do although it may be slightly different with slightly different equipment. For me, I'm going to start with the security system and wait for the lighting to shake out a little more over the next 3-6 months.
Here are some viewpoints according to research I did:

• Elk has always been supportive of the DIYer. Up until a few years ago, HAI wasn’t supportive of DIYers, and HAI still has a “How to Buy” notice prominent on the front page that says they are intended to be installed by professionals. Although HAI has improved with regards , I'm still a little leery, especially with that notice so prominent on their home page.
• HAI was recently purchased by Leviton and that should mean additional money for better products.
• HAI has more resources and seems to integrate with products from more companies, some better than others. Elk is a smaller company and doesn’t interface with as many companies but seem to have complete coverage except for maybe distributed a/v. Universal Devices (ISY-994) is also pretty small but seems to be very responsive and focuses on a smaller number of devices but is very good at making sure those devices work well.
• Insteon seems to be better than a few years ago but I still read about 90%+ response accuracy, which to me is not good enough. Also, SmartHome is the only company pushing Insteon. Due to Insteon, I almost crossed the ISY-994 off as an option but they are coming out with a Zwave module soon. The ISY-994 already has a Zigbee module available but the controller only has one slot so it’s either Zwave or Zigbee.
• UPB seems to be a decent, but definitely not perfect technology and is somewhat old without much new investment. HAI seems to be the only company doing anything in UPB with Gen 3 switches. However, I was not impressed with what I read about HLC and UPB status reporting.
• To me it seems like Zigbee might be the best technology (best range) but licensing isn’t great. Zwave definitely appears to have the most devices and potentially is the one I will go with, potentially with the ISY-994i and upcoming Zwave module. Again, this is why I plan to hold off for 3-6 months on lighting to see if things shake out more in that time.
• Although I haven’t purchased anything yet, I decided to go with Elk for my security system. Originally, I was leaning towards HAI as I will likely want to add distributed a/v at some point. What swayed me is the cost. I compared an arbitrary number of inputs, outputs, and relays; in my case 128, 32, and 24 respectively. Even taking into account the extras that HAI has built in, the cost for the HAI was almost $2300 (128 inputs, 80 outputs, 24 relays). The Elk M1 Gold was almost $1800 (128, 32, 32) so a savings of almost $500. For the extra $500 I could buy a dedicated controller or software such as ISY-994, Hometroller, CQC, Elve, etc.

David

 

[JoshFerg]

Re HAI keypad - yes this will mount on a 1 gang box. The holes line up.

 

[picta]

• Although I haven’t purchased anything yet, I decided to go with Elk for my security system. Originally, I was leaning towards HAI as I will likely want to add distributed a/v at some point. What swayed me is the cost. I compared an arbitrary number of inputs, outputs, and relays; in my case 128, 32, and 24 respectively. Even taking into account the extras that HAI has built in, the cost for the HAI was almost $2300 (128 inputs, 80 outputs, 24 relays). The Elk M1 Gold was almost $1800 (128, 32, 32) so a savings of almost $500. For the extra $500 I could buy a dedicated controller or software such as ISY-994, Hometroller, CQC, Elve, etc.

Don't forget to factor in the cost of the serial interfaces for Elk, that HAI has built-in. Once you add lighting, thermostat and ethernet interfaces it will bring the Elk price on par with HAI, and HAI will still have 3 additional ports included; so you won't have any spare change left.

 

[JoshFerg]

Those are some huge quantities you listed - 128/80/24. If you are going to use all of those then the controller is going to be small in price compared to all the devices. 100 lights is going to be at least $5000, and could be over $20000 depending on what switches you use. That is going to be where you see the big differences in price.