God Bless America

[IVB]

Consider respect for your fellow man and not for any religious requirement. I don't see much religious intolerance in America, other than from atheists.

Then you're not actually looking.

The very act of saying "God Bless America" is an insult to those who either don't subscribe to the notion of god, or don't believe in that word to describe Them (not Him, that implies there's only a single god, and literally billions of people don't believe that).

To tell people to use a certain groups word to describe something they may/may not believe as means of 'paying respect', then telling them they're being disprespectful if they do not do so, isn't itself respectful. Worse than that, it's downright intolerant as it invalidates the possibility of anybody else having a different point of view.

If it's really about respect and tolerance, then we should acknowledge other people's feelings, and not even use inflammatory and divisive words. And like it or not, "God" itself is an inflammatory word, because of what i've outlined above.

If I hear "Allah Bless America" sung in a major league stadium with everyone standing, taking off their hats, joining in, then i'll eat my words. Given the amount of press when the opening prayer was a Hindu priest in the Senate (Christian 'patriots' interrupting) in '07, and the Islamic one in texas in ('05?), I think that true religious tolerance won't be coming to the US anytime soon. Freedom of religion is only true if you believe in a judeo-christian derivative.

 

[DeLicious]

It's nice to see so many enlightened people on this board from both ends of the spectrum. I certainly appreciate my right to choose what I do.

I would say it depends on the hat. So if it was a Cubs hat, consider taking it off and perhaps throwing it away completely... If it was a Cardinals cap then definitely hold on to it.

It was a Rangers hat in my own ballpark!

Bob does mention "silent prayer", but that's the extent of the religious context. We were standing to show thanks and respect to those that serve or have served to protect the greatest country in the world. Part of the respect is to remove your hat.

This opens another can of worms altogether... let's not get into that.

There are many religions and beliefs, including atheism. Fortunately, most of us live in places where we can choose our beliefs and religion. Though I may not believe like you, I respect your right to choose, and will not attempt to infringe or disrespect it.

I wish everybody felt this way. I certainly don't yell in anyone else's face about their belief structure as has happened to me.

I don't see much religious intolerance in America, other than from atheists.

On the contrary, atheists are perhaps the most religiously discriminated-against group left in the US. There is still a social stigma to announcing this amongst friends, much less amongst strangers. The classical example has always been politicians from minorities:

• Could you ever see a black president elected? Of course, this already happened
• Could you ever see a woman president elected? Sure, almost happened recently.
• Could you ever see a Mormon president elected? Sure, again, almost happened. At least he ran with minimal outward prejudice.
• Could you ever see a gay person getting elected president? Maybe not in the near future, but you may or may not see one in the next 5 to 6 elections.
• Could you ever see an atheist president? This is by far the least likely. The outrage it would provoke amongst masses would be overwhelming.

There are many articles out there (especially since Obama's election) that use this example.

But aside from politically, on a personal level, I'm subject to it on a regular basis (I do live in the South though )

 

[Rupp]

I am an atheist, after all.

I'll say a prayer for you.

 

[IVB]

I am an atheist, after all.

I'll say a prayer for you.

Take him up on that, D, he's probably pretty good with prayers given that he's a HomeSeer user

 

[Steve]

I am an atheist, after all.

I'll say a prayer for you.

Take him up on that, D, he's probably pretty good with prayers given that he's a HomeSeer user

Cruel, but ROFL

If I hear "Allah Bless America" sung in a major league stadium with everyone standing, taking off their hats, joining in, then i'll eat my words.

Are you hungry? Did you see the video about civilization/culture sustenance? If its true and Muslim becomes the dominant religion/culture, you just may hear that

 

[IVB]

If I hear "Allah Bless America" sung in a major league stadium with everyone standing, taking off their hats, joining in, then i'll eat my words.

Are you hungry? Did you see the video about civilization/culture sustenance? If its true and Muslim becomes the dominant religion/culture, you just may hear that

Yeah, I saw that. Still >50 years away, and very much a "replace one intolerant regime with another intolerant regime". I still wouldn't be able to sing "Ganesh Bless America" in either one,they'd both want to kill me.

 

[royalj7]

Then you're not actually looking.

The very act of saying "God Bless America" is an insult to those who either don't subscribe to the notion of god, or don't believe in that word to describe Them (not Him, that implies there's only a single god, and literally billions of people don't believe that).

Wwellll.... Is it an insulting if you go to someone's house and they ask you to take your shoes off? What if you are a shoe believer? The country was founded by folks who passionately believed in God (the old white dude) and the majority of Americans are Judeo-Christian (approximately 78%). When in Rome...?

And I love the cracks on the other automation software...

 

[IVB]

Then you're not actually looking.

The very act of saying "God Bless America" is an insult to those who either don't subscribe to the notion of god, or don't believe in that word to describe Them (not Him, that implies there's only a single god, and literally billions of people don't believe that).

Wwellll.... Is it an insulting if you go to someone's house and they ask you to take your shoes off? What if you are a shoe believer? The country was founded by folks who passionately believed in God (the old white dude) and the majority of Americans are Judeo-Christian (approximately 78%). When in Rome...?

The country was founded by those fleeing from religious persecution. Freedom of Religion is part of the constitution.

So the real question here is: Is that true? Is the 1st Amendment "real", or should it read "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof as long as you pick a Judeo-Christian one".

What other amendments or parts of the constitution only apply to those of the correct religion? Seriously, I'd like to know.

 

[BDHall]

I am an atheist, after all.

I'll say a prayer for you.

Amen.

 

[Kevin L]

Consider respect for your fellow man and not for any religious requirement. I don't see much religious intolerance in America, other than from atheists.

Then you're not actually looking.

The very act of saying "God Bless America" is an insult to those who either don't subscribe to the notion of god, or don't believe in that word to describe Them (not Him, that implies there's only a single god, and literally billions of people don't believe that).

To tell people to use a certain groups word to describe something they may/may not believe as means of 'paying respect', then telling them they're being disprespectful if they do not do so, isn't itself respectful. Worse than that, it's downright intolerant as it invalidates the possibility of anybody else having a different point of view.

If it's really about respect and tolerance, then we should acknowledge other people's feelings, and not even use inflammatory and divisive words. And like it or not, "God" itself is an inflammatory word, because of what i've outlined above.

If I hear "Allah Bless America" sung in a major league stadium with everyone standing, taking off their hats, joining in, then i'll eat my words. Given the amount of press when the opening prayer was a Hindu priest in the Senate (Christian 'patriots' interrupting) in '07, and the Islamic one in texas in ('05?), I think that true religious tolerance won't be coming to the US anytime soon. Freedom of religion is only true if you believe in a judeo-christian derivative.

There is religious freedom in the United States, at least under the law. Of course there are still plenty of people, too many in fact, that are intolerant of anything that differs from the norm or their own beliefs/opinions. I've never judged people until I got to know them. Their ethnic, cultural, religious, economic, sexual orientation, or other traits weren't part of any judgment I make. I tried to raise my son the same way, and succeeded. How a person treats others I do judge. I certainly wouldn't ever threaten someone who didn't take their hat off during God Bless America.

You say "God" is an inflammatory or insulting word. How can the word itself be an insult? I'm a Catholic, but am not offended by the word Allah, Buddah, or other religious names. Why would an atheist be offended by the word God? DeLicious is an atheist. I don't have a problem with that. Hopefully he doesn't have a problem I'm Catholic. He should have a problem with those that threatened him for not removing his hat. That was wrong.

Peace,

Kevin

 

[123]

Using superlatives such as "the greatest country in the world" is yet another example of inflammatory language. It implies all other countries are 'lesser nations'. What metrics come into play when one proclaims greatness? Lowest infant mortality rate? If you check the CIA Factbook, Singapore is best and the US comes in just behind (wait for it) Cuba. Maybe longevity? Almost; just behind Australians, Canadians, Japanese, and parts of the EU. I'll concede that claims of greatest military power and indebtedness are unassailable.

On a recent business trip, I met a couple from Oregon. When asked if they would attend the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver, B.C., the husband adamantly indicated they would not. Over forty years ago, he was in western Canada and someone berated him for how his nation had treated, and continued to treat (i.e. in the Sixties), African-Americans. He indicated 'he had Black friends' and would never set foot in Canada again. Except for a single regression (a fishing trip), he never did and indicated he had no need to travel anywhere because (here it comes) he lives in "the greatest country in the world". An exaggerated opinion of oneself, and a myopic view of the world, makes self-proclaimed valuations of "greatest" less than credible. It also leads to atrophied views, and misguided actions, that demonstrate intolerance to other viewpoints.

 

[Kevin L]

Using superlatives such as "the greatest country in the world" is yet another example of inflammatory language. It implies all other countries are 'lesser nations'. What metrics come into play when one proclaims greatness? Lowest infant mortality rate? If you check the CIA Factbook, Singapore is best and the US comes in just behind (wait for it) Cuba. Maybe longevity? Almost; just behind Australians, Canadians, Japanese, and parts of the EU. I'll concede that claims of greatest military power and indebtedness are unassailable.

On a recent business trip, I met a couple from Oregon. When asked if they would attend the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver, B.C., the husband adamantly indicated they would not. Over forty years ago, he was in western Canada and someone berated him for how his nation had treated, and continued to treat (i.e. in the Sixties), African-Americans. He indicated 'he had Black friends' and would never set foot in Canada again. Except for a single regression (a fishing trip), he never did and indicated he had no need to travel anywhere because (here it comes) he lives in "the greatest country in the world". An exaggerated opinion of oneself, and a myopic view of the world, makes self-proclaimed valuations of "greatest" less than credible. It also leads to atrophied views, and misguided actions, that demonstrate intolerance to other viewpoints.

Hi, 123.

You're from Montreal. Are you Canadian? If so, I would hope you would think Canada is the greatest country in the world. Just as I would expect someone from Cuba, Australia, Japan, etc. to think their country is the greatest in the world. Is "greatest" something you can quantify? Probably not, but that doesn't change my opinion.

If you said Canada is the "greatest country in the world", I wouldn't feel you were being inflammatory. I'd just know you were proud of your country. I'd also know you were mistaken.

Peace,

Kevin

 

[IVB]

You say "God" is an inflammatory or insulting word. How can the word itself be an insult? I'm a Catholic, but am not offended by the word Allah, Buddah, or other religious names. Why would an atheist be offended by the word God? DeLicious is an atheist. I don't have a problem with that. Hopefully he doesn't have a problem I'm Catholic. He should have a problem with those that threatened him for not removing his hat. That was wrong.

True Freedom of religion means that I shouldn't have to answer questions defending my faith (or lack thereof, based on whatever belief system I choose).

The fact that there are people that would threaten others based on something like this is a reminder of how emotion-filled this topic is, and how it's best to accord respect to God(s) (or lack thereof) in a private fashion, with others whom you know to share your belief system. Church, your home, private facilities are all appropriate places to loudly announce and sing about this. A public, major league stadium most likely funded by the taxpayers including those who don't share that belief system, or schools (pledge), or currency, are not private. No good can come from being loud & public in the midst of those who you know do not share your beliefs. If people really hold those beliefs, they should feel just as confident by keeping it to themselves. Anything less than that is like the girl in the bar who's way too loud, even though she's dead sober - big warning sign that she's just a massive ball of insecurity, and any normal guy should stay away (unless he's just into the 1 night stand, those are fun).

But what do I know - i'm just a guest who won't take off his shoes in someone else's Rome. I didn't realize my US passport meant something less than someone else's passport.

 

[samgreco]

As for the founding fathers being Christian, that is debatable. Many were Deists.

"The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come, when the mystical generation [birth] of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation [birth] of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to John Adams, Apr. 11, 1823

". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."
- Benjamin Franklin - Date unknown?

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"
-John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."
-James Madison - 1803 letter objecting use of gov. land for churches

That's just a few. There are TONS more like that. So the idea that this was founded as a Christian state is not very accurate. It was founded as a state without a religion.

 

[DeLicious]

Sam, don't forget the Treaty of Tripoli, unanimously approved by the Senate on June 7, 1797 and signed by John Adams himself.

Article 11: As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.