M1G and Cellular Monitoring

[geogecko]

Oops, so apparently there is a 4530 and a 4530EX? I was just leaving off the EX in an effort to be lazy. I did not mean to refer to the 4530 at all then.

So, in your expert opinion, I should just run a 4530EX with its trouble output back to a zone input on the M1?

Based on your other comments, I think I'd be safe to assume it would be ok to run the 4530EX off of the M1's aux power supply.

The only devices I have attached to, which would be powered from the M1 are 3 of the low profile keypads and the 2-way ELK wireless Tx/Rx, and of course the Uplink. I don't anticipate adding anymore to the M1, as my other HA is done with an ISY 994.

 

[drvnbysound]

So, if I'm hearing you right... and you had to choose a cellular device for an Elk system, you'd choose the 4530EX over the 4500EZ?
 
Any other contenders?

 

[RAL]

I think I'd be safe to assume it would be ok to run the 4530EX off of the M1's aux power supply. The only devices I have attached to, which would be powered from the M1 are 3 of the low profile keypads and the 2-way ELK wireless Tx/Rx, and of course the Uplink. I don't anticipate adding anymore to the M1, as my other HA is done with an ISY 994.

 
 
I was re-reading the specs for the 4530EX.  It shows a maximum off-hook current of 600 mA and also a peak current of 1.3A - 1.5A during radio transmission.
 
The 600 mA number would put you just over the limit of what the M1's power supply can provide, in addition to powering the 3 keypads and M1XRFTW.  And if the 1.3A number is to be believed, then you're way over.
 
In either case, I would add an extra power supply.

 

[geogecko]

Is there another spec sheet for the 4530EX besides the 2 page one on Uplink's web site?  Because it says 200mA constant, 600mA peak.  I used the ELK current draw spreadsheet that you pointed out on ELK's web site, and it calculated 480mA with my M1G, 3x Keypads, and Wireless Tx/Rx, so if I add the max peak requirement of the 4530EX, that puts me at 1080mA, which is total system load, if I subtract the M1G (140mA) which would not be on the Aux Power supply, that puts me at 940mA, which is still a good ways away from the 1250mA spec for the Aux Power spec, and actually even still within the 1000mA UL requirement.
 
I'm not really too worried about battery capacity, as even at 1080mA full load, that would be well over 4 hours on the battery, especailly if there were no alarm events to trigger a transmission.
 
This would also keep me from having to mount another can to install all this equipment in, because I think I'd just install the Uplink on the drywall above the ELK can.  I eventually plan on having a keypad lock on the door to the room the system is installed in, so wouldn't really be too concerned for it not being locked inside a can.

 

[RAL]

There seems to be a difference is what Uplink says the power requirements are in the 4530EX data sheet vs the installation manual.  The installation manual says that max power during radio transmission is 1.3A to 1.5A.
 
https://login.uplink.com/Downloads/Uplink4530EX_IUG.pdf
 
I'm not sure why you think the M1's AUX power is spec'd at 1250 mA, unless you are referring to the rating on the PTC.   The PTC is designed to trip at a current that is higher than all the attached devices are ever expected to draw.  That doesn't mean the power supply itself can actually provide that much power, except perhaps under a momentary short circuit condition.
 
The M1 has only one power supply that powers everything - the M1, the SAUX, VAUX and data bus devices.  It can provide 1.0A of total power for ALL those loads, including the M1 board itself.   If you plug some numbers into the current draw spread sheet, anytime the total load goes over 1.0A, it will advise you that you need an additional power supply.  You can't subtract out the load for the M1 board, as it runs off that same, single power supply.
 
So, even if the 600mA number for the Uplink is correct, at 1080mA, you will be over the rated capacity.  Even if you were at, say just 900 mA, it would be advisable to use an additional power supply since you have too little head room.

 

[Del91574]

I was re-reading the specs for the 4530EX.  It shows a maximum off-hook current of 600 mA and also a peak current of 1.3A - 1.5A during radio transmission.
 
The 600 mA number would put you just over the limit of what the M1's power supply can provide, in addition to powering the 3 keypads and M1XRFTW.  And if the 1.3A number is to be believed, then you're way over.
 
In either case, I would add an extra power supply.

Miliseconds. Almost every supply you'd be putting this on would have enough HP to soak up the current for a brief period from the battery(ies). As far as from the host M1 itself, I wouldn't chance it. Too easy to hit the 1A wall even though the overload should be picked up by the battery and not kick off a PTC for that short a period.
 
Again, if you're putting in an M1 with a reasonable amount of protection, XEP, XSP...etc. you should be looking at least 2-3A for an aux supply and not running at the ragged edge and follow the normal system headroom values (20-25%)

 

[TheHeadFL]

Sorry to sidetrack this thread, but it seems mostly related.
 
I am also interested in cellular monitoring, and I will be using cellular as primary.  (I have no POTS or VOIP setup)  Are there any disadvantages of using a dial-capture system (4530EX) vs. the more elaborate serial/XSP-based 4500EZ setup?  (Aside from the cost differences)

 

[Del91574]

The differences have started becoming smaller but the main difference is the bidirectional serial communication (M1 receives data on cellular fail, read XSP manual). The speed is slightly faster for how the data hits the Uplink but the variable is how the data is ported from Uplink to the CS. Again, all is really trivial in execution.
 
Now that the 4530EX is smaller, cheaper and requires less than the old 4530, it's an economic factor for me.

 

[TheHeadFL]

Is cellular failure reporting the only bidirectional communication going on?
 
I am wondering if perhaps the CS is seeing a richer set of data (i.e. more capabilities), or is it basically the same from their point of view?

 

[Del91574]

CID is CID. There's only so much you can send to them and so much their automation computers see. Remember, if it's not templated, it's logged only (if that).
 
The only real item that could vary, but it's really a moot point and really trivial to check, would be to go through the exact list of captured CID codes the 4530EX can get and retransmit vs. true data passthru.
 
In the end, barring obtaining more information from the cell itself bidirectionally (cell trouble vs. host system trouble) it's really trivial. Low battery and AC fail for the aux supply is an easy fix. The only difference is the text feedback via the serial to the M1 and even that is somewhat limited (although you could fire a rule off it).
 
Like I said, in my case, selling and installing, the 4500 isn't as economical when you look at what else you really need to put them in (XSP, cable, enclosure, etc). The data seen by the CS is the same.

 

[TrojanHorse]

Hi  - sorry to hijack the thread but I think my question is similar.
 
I have an ELK M1G and I’m looking for cellular monitoring as my primary monitoring.  I’ve read a lot of threads here but I’m still in need of some clarification / advice.  At this point I’m likely to go with Alarm Relay but I need some help on the cellular dialer. 
 
I talked with Alarm Relay and they suggest using the ipdatatel CBAT as the cellular dialer.  They will support Uplink but it’s an additional $5 / month.
Anyone familiar with the CBAT?  Anyone using the CBAT (for cellular) with an ELK M1G and what is the experience (especially if using Alarm Relay)?  What does the Uplink offer that makes it worth the additional monthly cost? (I’m finding the hardware for similar cost).  It’s my understanding that CBAT is CDMA / Verizon only, but that will work for my setup. 
 
As an aside, I’m using an ISY + ELK Module with the Mobilinc app so that gives me plenty of remote control functionality - I just want a reliable cellular dialer and central station.
 
thanks in advance to all those who share their knowledge here.

 

[cheezit73]

Trojan I just had the same conversation with AlarmRelay today and would be interested to know as well. I was leaning towards the uplink 4530ez.

 

[geogecko]

Agreed, no thread hijack in my opinion, I'm still undecided.

 

[Del91574]

Trojan I just had the same conversation with AlarmRelay today and would be interested to know as well. I was leaning towards the uplink 4530ez.

Be wary of the CBAT. It's CDMA so it's coverage is going to be limited to the ATT network primarily (typically). If there's coverage issues in your area with CDMA vs. GSM, then you're going to have issues as well. The other red flag for me is nowhere does it state their devices are UL listed. May not be an issue for most, but for me that is stating their retransmission and facilities aren't UL certified (they are a passthru to the CS) and neither are their devices. If I remember right, AR is not a UL listed CS unless something changed.
 
Just comes down to the dealer. Biggest items with cellular/IP is if the CS is a dealer and the installer is a sub-dealer and who does the billing. Most likely AR gets better multiples for the IPdatatel vs. Uplink.

 

[cheezit73]

Geogecko I think I am leaning towards the Uplink 4530z as it seems like the uplinks have a good reputation here and Del seems pretty knowledgeable about them.  The lady I talked to at Alarm Relay today also seemed very knowledgeable about the ELK and said that they can monitor the ELK through the M1XP with the cellular as a backup and that is the same cost as cellular only.  They recommend  the CBAT but have no problem using the uplink. I previously used GEOARM for my Vista system but when I called them about the ELK they were very uninterested and said even though they will monitor the uplink they don't like to.  Contrast that with alarm relay who seemed very knowledgeable about the elk.
 
Also Del this is from the email they sent me:
 
"About Alarm Relay:

We have been in business since 1972. Additionally, we are a UL-Listed Central Station, a BBB (Better Business Bureau) accredited business with an A+ rating, and a CSAA (Central Station Alarm Association) Five Diamond Certified Central Station. We are committed to providing our customers with cost effective, quality alarm monitoring."
 
Geo keep us updated with which way you go, I won't be able to install my system until march.