[off topic] how to add recessed lights

[BraveSirRobbin]

Be sure the cone of light from the new fixtures is beyond the fan blades, otherwise the strobe effect can be a disaster.

Amen to that! That is the number one reason I had canned lighting installed in most of my rooms (off the corners of the rooms) when my house was built.

Their are new fans now where the light comes out the top, but they are pretty expensive.

But, agree, I HATE that strobe affect. Sort of makes me want to put on my leisure suit and disco, but that's another story....

 

[sic0048]

What do you think about the new wiring?

Running wires in the ceiling between the two sets of lights will be easier than removing the drywall below the window. Plus you won't have to drill through all those 2x4s on either side of the window.

Here is the easiest way to run the wire in the ceiling - temporarily remove the fan and electric box. That will give you a hole about 1/2 way between the two sets of lights. Then drill from one of the light locations diagonally toward the fan location. If you only have to go through 2 or 3 ceiling joists, this is very doable. Then drill from a recessed light located on the other side of the room towards the fan location. You'll need one of those long flexable drill bits. Just be careful that the bit is bent enough to ensure you won't drill through the floor above. Once the holes are drilled, you can use a fiberglass pull rod to pull the wires from one side of the room to the other. You won't cut the wire at the fan location - it will simply pass by the fan.

If you want to make the hole around the fan a little larger, you can always get a nice ceiling medallion to cover up the larger hole. When caulked and painted, they look very nice.

 

[Steve]

1. Cort is absolutely right in the cans should be connect in series (daisy chained). Each box (connected to the can) *should* have 9 wires. 3 each for hot, neutral and ground except for the very last light will have 6. This assumes the input wire, the output to the next can and the can wires itself.

2. Look carefully for a ground as I would strongly recommend you use a ground all the way through. Most outlet boxes should have a ground even if its just wire nutted and passing through not connected to the Outlet.

3. How is running that wire under the window going to be any easier than the joists? In fact it looks like you will have 17 2x4's to go through including the load bearing ones supporting the window header instead of 6 joists overhead.

4. I would run the wire from the switch to the end can in the same joist cavity and daisy chain from there. The way you have it will have 12 wires in that 1 can which will be tight. (1 input and 2 outputs)

5. I don't know the room layout or where existing switches are, but I still think its easier to tap into an existing switch box instead of an outlet and putting a new switch location. And depending on if this will be automated or not you have several choices. You can replace the box with a larger one to accommodate another switch (harder) or take the simple route and use a dual load switch or depending on what lighting tech you are using, replace one of the switches with a load capable multibutton switch which will control whatever light or device the switch was controlling, then insert an inline module in the wiring for the overhead cans and control that with another button (that button will send a link/command to the inline module to control the lights). If it will be all manual there are several style dual load switches you can use and not disturb the current switchbox.

Edit: #3 duplicated idea with above as I was typing and didn't see that post at the time.

 

[mustangcoupe]

2. Look carefully for a ground as I would strongly recommend you use a ground all the way through. Most outlet boxes should have a ground even if its just wire nutted and passing through not connected to the Outlet.

I would guess the ground wire is "missing" because he is using EMT (metal conduit) and they used the conduit as the ground, and the boxes I would uess are metal also and thus connecting to the outlet creating the ground through the screw and tabs. the ground wire if there should never pass through without connecting to the outlet that would then be an ungrounded 3 prong outlet which is another no-no...

 

[v1rtu0s1ty]

Be sure the cone of light from the new fixtures is beyond the fan blades, otherwise the strobe effect can be a disaster.

That's a very good catch! Otherwise, every night will be a party! Hahaha.

 

[v1rtu0s1ty]

Hmmm, something caught my eye in your post. One: You mentioned conduit and Two: You are the state of Ill.

I believe you need to use EMT conduit for these runs, but might be mistaken. I'm going off my memory (i.e. scary) here but I remember other members posting about running conduit for all their electrical runs when they are from Ill.

Check with your local electrical supply house or local authority with jurisdiction.

Is conduit different from EMT conduit? I'm not familiar with the terms. All conduits that were installed by our builder are metal.

 

[v1rtu0s1ty]

1. Cort is absolutely right in the cans should be connect in series (daisy chained). Each box (connected to the can) *should* have 9 wires. 3 each for hot, neutral and ground except for the very last light will have 6. This assumes the input wire, the output to the next can and the can wires itself.

2. Look carefully for a ground as I would strongly recommend you use a ground all the way through. Most outlet boxes should have a ground even if its just wire nutted and passing through not connected to the Outlet.

I'll attach a green wire to the conduit metal pipe from the outlet.

3. How is running that wire under the window going to be any easier than the joists? In fact it looks like you will have 17 2x4's to go through including the load bearing ones supporting the window header instead of 6 joists overhead.

4. I would run the wire from the switch to the end can in the same joist cavity and daisy chain from there. The way you have it will have 12 wires in that 1 can which will be tight. (1 input and 2 outputs)

So there should a neutral wire from the switch box right? I'll check later.

5. I don't know the room layout or where existing switches are, but I still think its easier to tap into an existing switch box instead of an outlet and putting a new switch location. And depending on if this will be automated or not you have several choices. You can replace the box with a larger one to accommodate another switch (harder) or take the simple route and use a dual load switch or depending on what lighting tech you are using, replace one of the switches with a load capable multibutton switch which will control whatever light or device the switch was controlling, then insert an inline module in the wiring for the overhead cans and control that with another button (that button will send a link/command to the inline module to control the lights). If it will be all manual there are several style dual load switches you can use and not disturb the current switchbox.

Edit: #3 duplicated idea with above as I was typing and didn't see that post at the time.

I like your #5 idea. Hopefully, it's easy to change it into wider gang box and if I have more space. Last time I check, the stud clearance where the switch is now is narrow. I'll have to check again.

Thanks.

EDIT: I just checked the picture and I have room for a bigger gang box.

 

[Steve]

2. Look carefully for a ground as I would strongly recommend you use a ground all the way through. Most outlet boxes should have a ground even if its just wire nutted and passing through not connected to the Outlet.

I would guess the ground wire is "missing" because he is using EMT (metal conduit) and they used the conduit as the ground, and the boxes I would uess are metal also and thus connecting to the outlet creating the ground through the screw and tabs. the ground wire if there should never pass through without connecting to the outlet that would then be an ungrounded 3 prong outlet which is another no-no...

Yes, you are right, I did not see BSR's post when I started typing. EMT would change things. And I agree a pass thru ground is not right, was just trying to say to be sure to look for a ground anywhere.

I'll be using the other wall. Looks like it's easier since it doesn't have insulation. I'll look for the other wall's picture and decide from there.

I forgot to mention that circuit breaker is 15 amp. Should I change it to 20amp? I noticed everytime we have a gathering, most of our lights are open. The circuit handles the kitchen outlets and light and family room outlets and lights

NO!!!! Now that I warned you, it depends on the wiring. You can't just put a a larger breaker without having the right size wiring. If you put a larger breaker on undersized wire, you have the potential for the wire overheating and causing a fire before the breaker trips. You must have the right wire everywhere on that circuit too. If you are adding 4 lights assuming a 75W bulb, you will be adding 2.5A to the circuit. It would be best to check the circuit under load to see what is typical before you add stuff. If you have a clamp on ammeter (you can get them really cheap like at Harbor Freight), you simply clamp it over the hot wire that goes to the breaker. You can then turn on your lights and stuff as you typically would and look at the reading on the ammeter. If you are well below 15, like say 7 or so then you can safely add the extra 4 lights and not worry about the breaker. Alternatively if you don't want to go into the panel, you can calculate the current for all of the lighting (just add up the bulb wattage and divide by 120) and then use a kill-a-watt for all of your plug in appliances and add all the currents together. That way you know exactly where you are and how much you can safely add.

 

[v1rtu0s1ty]

2. Look carefully for a ground as I would strongly recommend you use a ground all the way through. Most outlet boxes should have a ground even if its just wire nutted and passing through not connected to the Outlet.

I would guess the ground wire is "missing" because he is using EMT (metal conduit) and they used the conduit as the ground, and the boxes I would uess are metal also and thus connecting to the outlet creating the ground through the screw and tabs. the ground wire if there should never pass through without connecting to the outlet that would then be an ungrounded 3 prong outlet which is another no-no...

Yes, you are right, I did not see BSR's post when I started typing. EMT would change things. And I agree a pass thru ground is not right, was just trying to say to be sure to look for a ground anywhere.

I'll be using the other wall. Looks like it's easier since it doesn't have insulation. I'll look for the other wall's picture and decide from there.

I forgot to mention that circuit breaker is 15 amp. Should I change it to 20amp? I noticed everytime we have a gathering, most of our lights are open. The circuit handles the kitchen outlets and light and family room outlets and lights

NO!!!! Now that I warned you, it depends on the wiring. You can't just put a a larger breaker without having the right size wiring. If you put a larger breaker on undersized wire, you have the potential for the wire overheating and causing a fire before the breaker trips. You must have the right wire everywhere on that circuit too. If you are adding 4 lights assuming a 75W bulb, you will be adding 2.5A to the circuit. It would be best to check the circuit under load to see what is typical before you add stuff. If you have a clamp on ammeter (you can get them really cheap like at Harbor Freight), you simply clamp it over the hot wire that goes to the breaker. You can then turn on your lights and stuff as you typically would and look at the reading on the ammeter. If you are well below 15, like say 7 or so then you can safely add the extra 4 lights and not worry about the breaker. Alternatively if you don't want to go into the panel, you can calculate the current for all of the lighting (just add up the bulb wattage and divide by 120) and then use a kill-a-watt for all of your plug in appliances and add all the currents together. That way you know exactly where you are and how much you can safely add.

OH, thanks for the warning.

Here are the devices/lights:

hdtv = 240watts = 2 amps
kitchen flourescent lights = 136 watts = 1.13 amps
breakfast lights = 39 watts = 0.325 amps
ceiling fan lights = 120 watts = 1 amp
dishwasher = ???? I'll have to check the manual. I guess it's also on a separate GFI circuit. I'll check this one
microwave = ???? I'll check it later too

I checked refrigerator last night and it's on a separate circuit.

So my new total amp is almost 7 but without the microwave and dishwasher. So looks like I am good.

 

[Steve]

Dishwasher, Fridge and often the MW are usually on their own circuits.

I'm sure EMT is more work than straight romex, especially routing through joists and walls. Only you know your skill level, but I would recommend considering hiring a licensed, experienced electrician for something like this, especially if its your first major electrical project. Sometimes its worth it to just watch alongside him, ask alot of questions and look at is as an investment in training/education with the side benefit of getting lights.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

I'm sure EMT is more work than straight romex, especially routing through joists and walls.

VERY true

 

[v1rtu0s1ty]

Dishwasher, Fridge and often the MW are usually on their own circuits.

I'm sure EMT is more work than straight romex, especially routing through joists and walls. Only you know your skill level, but I would recommend considering hiring a licensed, experienced electrician for something like this, especially if its your first major electrical project. Sometimes its worth it to just watch alongside him, ask alot of questions and look at is as an investment in training/education with the side benefit of getting lights.

I'm comfortable doing it. I have a friend(EE graduate) who I can invite once I start the project although most of the time, he's out of town due to field work.
I will have to go to Home Depot and ask them other solutions I can use other than EMT conduit. But when I did my electrical wiring of my basement at my last house, I was recommended to use flexible conduit. I still have many flexible conduits left from the old project.

I also remember seeing some romex used in our house. I'm trying to look for the pictures. However, about 95%, they used EMT conduit.

 

[nick_l]

Everyone seems to have covered the major points:

1. DO NOT change the breaker to a 20amp.

2. your emt is your ground. if you transition to romex (if it's legal where you live) you will need to firmly attach the bare ground wire to the box that you are coming off of.

3. Check lighting placement. You dont want a can directly over a television, for instance.

One thing I didnt see mentioned is that you should run your neutral though your switch box (not clear to me from your pics if you were planning to to that or not). You may want to incorporate some sort of home automation or timer in the future. Not having a neutral in the switch box will severely limit your choices.

Have fun, be safe. Make very sure the circuit(s) you will be working on are off at the breaker box and put a peice of tape over them (you never can tell when a Significant other might take it upon themselves to find out why the hair dryer or some such thing isnt working and flip the breaker)

Nick

 

[v1rtu0s1ty]

Everyone seems to have covered the major points:

1. DO NOT change the breaker to a 20amp.

I learned that today. I also learned some math about converting watts to amps. Woohoo!!!

2. your emt is your ground. if you transition to romex (if it's legal where you live) you will need to firmly attach the bare ground wire to the box that you are coming off of.

Yep, I will make sure to securely attach the retrofits ground wire to the EMT conduit.

3. Check lighting placement. You dont want a can directly over a television, for instance.

Yep, I will plus the strobe effect of the ceiling fan!

One thing I didnt see mentioned is that you should run your neutral though your switch box (not clear to me from your pics if you were planning to to that or not). You may want to incorporate some sort of home automation or timer in the future. Not having a neutral in the switch box will severely limit your choices.

Yes, I will run the neutral wire along with the hot wire together just like I see on the installation they did to our house.

Have fun, be safe. Make very sure the circuit(s) you will be working on are off at the breaker box and put a peice of tape over them (you never can tell when a Significant other might take it upon themselves to find out why the hair dryer or some such thing isnt working and flip the breaker)

Nick

I will also take pictures! This is going to be a fun project for me.

Thanks everyone! YOU guys are the best!!!!!!!!

 

[v1rtu0s1ty]

I'm so so happy and lucky. I watched our pre-drywall meeting video and noticed the joist they put in the family room. So I pulled my constructions pics dvd and found this.