omni iie with upb. help please.

[lvmikel]

Ok now that I know you have HLC enabled:
 
 
The status tracking you describe is working correctly.
When you send an off command, the controller assumes the unit turns off and changes the status in the system immediately.
But it also verifies the result, so after the preset UPB delay, it sends out status requests to all the units in the room and updates the actual status received.
 
This is why you are seeing the status change and go back.  The lights aren't really turning off.
 
Do you know if the two lights are on the same phase or opposite phases?
Does this behavior (not turning off when both are on) happen always or intermittently? 
Does it matter which light was turned on first?
 
I assume you are using room OFF commands.
Verify in Upstart that the Room OFF link is actually programmed to 0%.
Do the switches respond to any of the other Room scenes (A, B, C, D) when both are on?
In HLC, the Room Off command is really a link Activate with the responses programmed to 0%.
Try sending the Room Off Link as a Deactivate command from the UPB link section (use the same link number but send it as an OFF command rather than an ON command).

 
desert_aip,
 
To answer your questions:
1. Not only is rm1-2 and rm1-3 on the same phase, they are also on the same breaker.
2. The issue happens intermittently. But definitely more on the side of not working rather than working.
3. It does not matter which light is turned on first, I can still experience the problem of them not shutting off.
4. I am testing using the touchscreen->control->rm1 (Exterior Lights)-> OFF/ON. I also try with SNAPLINK with the same results.
5. I have not tried any scenes, A,B,C,D, but I put my switches in setup mode and then tapped bottom rocker 3 times (told to me by HAI tech) to put them in non dim mode. That's because the courtyard rm1-3 is dimmable LED. but the breezeway rm1-2 are non dimmable CFL. So I believe the scenes won't work as they basically affect the dim level. One thing I will be trying tonight is to replace my rm1-2 non dimming CFL's with dimming LEDS, putting the switches back in dimming mode (setup and then tap top rocker three times..told to me by HAI tech) and then retesting.
 
For the other questions, I have to wait until my 232 connector and cable get in on Wed so I can connect with upstart.
 
Again...I really appreciate the help.
 
Mike

 

[ano]

My house is 100% LED's, some diming, some not, and every switch is a UPB switch, and I've never had any signal problems. That isn't your problem either. UPB can be bothered by noise, or the signal can be too low. Known UPB noise makers are everything from microwave ovens, air filters, gas stoves, to LCD TVs. You name it.  The best way to find a problem is breaker by breaker. UPStart can help, but it can give misleading results sometimes as well. 
 
A problem that only happens now and then can be a weak signal also, but usually not if everything is on the same phase, but I have seen cases where something like a backup power supply plugged in near the PIM causes problems and weakens the signal.
 
Unfortunately, UPB is good, but not 100%. I use a repeater, which probably isn't required, but it makes the signal so strong on both phases, I avoid many problems. They are costly, but will save you from pulling your hair out sometimes.

 

[lvmikel]

Hey all...here's the latest update...
So I received my phase coupler today and just got done wiring it in.
System was WWAAAYYY more reliable...but I was still having an issue with my courtyard light (rm1-3).
With the system as reliable as it is now...I could tell everything worked beautifully...even the scenes and dimming, until I turned on the courtyard light.
When that comes on, it all goes to hell.
 
So I pulled the UPB switch from the courtyard and swapped it with a regular single switch that was running my back patio lights.
 
Now my rm1-2 (Breezeway) and rm1-3 (Formerly Courtyard and Now Back Patio) works perfectly. Like a charm.
Interesting fact...the courtyard that now has a NON UPB switch in it...it still totally whacks out my other UPB switches if I turn it on.
 
Points to something definitely wrong with the wiring on that fixture.
I will have to look into that at another time...but for now, I am ready to proceed with more UPB switches...and hope that the wiring issue is isolated to that single fixture.
 
Thanks to everyone that responded on this thread!

 

[pete_c]

Guessing you can check the hot, neutral or any other leads in that wiring box to validate electrical.
 
Here my UPB switches / transport / signal levels / were fine.  I never really saw any noise.  I didn't have any phase couplers in place at the time.
 
My signal levels one day just literally turned down a bit on one phase. 
 
Initially I did try the installation of a phase coupler and it didn't fix my issues.
 
I attributed it to maybe some mickey mouse electrical UPB signal sucking coming from a new in ground pool installation next door and about 200-300 feet from my fuse panel.  Whatever; putting in a repeater solved my UPB issues and I have not had any issues since (its been a few years now).

 

[neillt]

Hey all...here's the latest update...
So I received my phase coupler today and just got done wiring it in.
System was WWAAAYYY more reliable...but I was still having an issue with my courtyard light (rm1-3).
With the system as reliable as it is now...I could tell everything worked beautifully...even the scenes and dimming, until I turned on the courtyard light.
When that comes on, it all goes to hell.
 
So I pulled the UPB switch from the courtyard and swapped it with a regular single switch that was running my back patio lights.
 
Now my rm1-2 (Breezeway) and rm1-3 (Formerly Courtyard and Now Back Patio) works perfectly. Like a charm.
Interesting fact...the courtyard that now has a NON UPB switch in it...it still totally whacks out my other UPB switches if I turn it on.
 
Points to something definitely wrong with the wiring on that fixture.
I will have to look into that at another time...but for now, I am ready to proceed with more UPB switches...and hope that the wiring issue is isolated to that single fixture.
 
Thanks to everyone that responded on this thread!

 
Remember what I was saying about the friend that had LED lighting that would wash out the powerline with noise???  This courtyard light is a CFL, isn't it?  In his case the ballast electronics were horrible powerline noise polluters.
 
I bet if you use UPStart and turn on that light the signal meter in UPStart is going to peg at constant full signal.
 
Another test (if it's feasible) is to just change out the bulb to a regular incandescent and see if it fixes it.

 

[ano]

Hey all...here's the latest update...
So I received my phase coupler today and just got done wiring it in.
System was WWAAAYYY more reliable...but I was still having an issue with my courtyard light (rm1-3).
With the system as reliable as it is now...I could tell everything worked beautifully...even the scenes and dimming, until I turned on the courtyard light.
When that comes on, it all goes to hell.
 
So I pulled the UPB switch from the courtyard and swapped it with a regular single switch that was running my back patio lights.
 
Now my rm1-2 (Breezeway) and rm1-3 (Formerly Courtyard and Now Back Patio) works perfectly. Like a charm.
Interesting fact...the courtyard that now has a NON UPB switch in it...it still totally whacks out my other UPB switches if I turn it on.
 
Points to something definitely wrong with the wiring on that fixture.
I will have to look into that at another time...but for now, I am ready to proceed with more UPB switches...and hope that the wiring issue is isolated to that single fixture.
 
Thanks to everyone that responded on this thread!

A UPB switch would never cause any problems, nor would any "wiring" problems. What is causing the problem is the load the switch controls. Again, UPB problems do occasionally come up, especially when you start adding UPB from the start. If the load is a simple LED bulb, then try a different type to see if it fixes it. If its more complex, its easy to buy a UPB filter, and isolate that leg. As Pete and I said, repeaters will almost always fix most problems before they start, and couplers help, but they are not a cure-all.

 

[Desert_AIP]

I had a frustrating intermittent signal attenuation problem that would severely inhibit reliability but UPStart showed little to no noise on the line.
 
I finally traced it to the water heater, essentially nearly directly coupling the phases over a small value resistor.
I added a couple of additional couplers to boost the signal.
 
It sounds like the fixture or bulb in that courtyard light is the issue. 
It may be an attenuation problem vs. a noise problem.
Try placing an incandescent bulb in the fixture an test things out.
If it all works well you may need a different brand LED there.

 

[lvmikel]

You guys are good!

I put in a incandescant in the courtyard non upb switch and everything works when it is on.

I then decided to do the following to verify it was definitely the bulb. I then took the suspected incompatible led bulb that was in it and swapped it with one of my other leds on the upb switch. Well...everything stops working again.

That explains it....need a different led bulb.

Thanks all.

I just got my pc to Pim cable so I am gonna look at the lines and play around. I am curious what upstart will show when the incompatible led is turned on.

 

[lvmikel]

OK....first let me start by saying that everything is working reliably right now.
But I just hooked up Upstart and now I got another set of questions...
 
I had it discover my switches and that all worked great.
 
I then double clicked Unit 2 Breezeway and pulled it up.
I went to the last tab called commnications test and run a few samples.
They come back with 0 noise which is good, but my Signal at the Device is 6 and Signal at the PIM of 10.
This is very low and low on the legend.
The phase is Other.
 
So I am thinking...man...what was it like before the phase coupler...
So I shut off the breakers and rerun the test...
 
My Signal at the device goes up 1 and at the PIM it goes up by 1.
 
 
Am I looking at this right?
 
Does it make any sense that shutting down the phase coupler actually gave me a higher signal??
And is it normal for the signals to be that low??
 
Thanks.
Mike

 

[Desert_AIP]

You may have things on the line attenuating the signal.
In a 4000sqft home, the signals are running along quite a bit of wire.
How far away is the transformer?
What size is the transformer?
The signals have to run through all that gear, which has at least some impedance, that can attenuate the signals, especially when they have to cross phases.
 
In my situation with the electric water heater above I was using a single coupler.
I have a 3200sqft house and two outbuildings of 900 and 400 sqft.
I added two more couplers and the signals were boosted enough to return full reliability everywhere on the property.
I could probably get away with only two, but I am running 3 just in case, one in each panel/sub panel.
I'm using the SA couplers.

 

[lvmikel]

Reading a bunch of other threads and also a few comments on my thread...it sounded like I needed a repeater vs. a coupler.
When I pull up upstart and go into the repeater section, it actually states that for 5000 sqft homes you should use a repeater. Mine is 4700.
 
I have a PCS Repeater on the way...be here in 2 days. Found some good reviews on cocoon tech and they are only $125 now compared to $300 for the HAI one.
 
I have 400 amp service, 200 to main panel. 200 to subpanel on 2nd floor.
PIM by the 2nd floor sub panel.
Coupler currently at main panel downstairs.
 
 
Can you guys please give me feedback on whether I should yank the coupler and replace with repeater at the main panel.
Or should I move the coupler to second floor panel and put the repeater on the first floor panel.
 
I saw a few comments saying DONT use both, but then I read in upstart it says it is fine and actually a good idea.
 
Thanks.
Mike

 

[neillt]

The biggest issue with the repeater is that not all UPB devices support it.  I think the major culprit is Simply Automated.  So if all you have is the repeater, then devices that don't support it on the other phase from the PIM basically get nothing, which is what you had before the coupler.
 
If you also have a coupler, you can still get *some* signal over to the other phase.  The repeater is smart enough to not re-repeat its own signals, and devices that support repeating will recognize what's going on.  So in theory it's all supposed to work fine.  There seems to be anecdotal evidence to the contrary but I haven't seen it work incorrectly so I don't know.

 

[pete_c]

That is a very good price for the PulseWorx UPB repeater.   They also do make UPB three phase repeaters.
 
Here I use a Leviton HAI UPB repeater which looks identical except I paid much more for it that the deal being offered.
 
Most of my newest UPB in wall switches are Simply Automated with multiple paddles and dual loads.  I went to reducing my UPB footprint somewhat with these updates.  That said I have a hodgepodge of UPB switches here after a few years (HAI and PCS and SA).  These work fine with my Leviton HAI UPB repeater.  All my UPB in wall light switches / links work for me and signal levels are fine with no noise.
 
I only utilize one panel here.  I put breakers and separate circuits for the phase couplers / repeaters initially flip flopping using one or the other or both or none and eventually shutting off the phase coupler (it is still in place).
 
Try it yourself; you will know right away what it (UPB repeater) does using Upstart.  Upstart is a valuable tool for this sort of stuff.
 
While in the fuse panel redid some of the individual circuits and breakers moving them a bit and making a drawing / dated document relating to what was what using a walkie talkie with wife (very low WAF).  Well too added some new circuits to get more granular (some this relating to automation).   Added a whole house surge suppressor that has a connection to the OPII panel.  Put in a lift for a chandelier and added a new circuit for it running it from the basement fuse panel to the attic.  It was a PITA as I had to redo a bit of infrastructure over a cathedral ceiling plus the thing weighed more than one of the garage door openers.  Its just a steel cable winch of sorts and really its slow which is probably a good thing.

 

[ano]

The biggest issue with the repeater is that not all UPB devices support it.  I think the major culprit is Simply Automated.  So if all you have is the repeater, then devices that don't support it on the other phase from the PIM basically get nothing, which is what you had before the coupler.

This isn't fully true.
 
Early Gen 1 switches, and even recent Gen 1 switches (only still made by Simply Automated) do not support repeaters, but that does not mean repeaters offer no benefit.  Assuming your PIM supports repeaters, any signal broadcast from the panel, through the PIM to your switches WILL be repeated across both phases.  Where the problem occurs is when the switch broadcast back to the PIM, this is where the repeater does not repeat it.
 
So in the forward direction, a repeater will help, in the reply direction it won't, and in fact it will make the situation worse. Since UPStart need two-way communications, but you can move a switch to the other phase, program it, then put it back.  You will have reliable transmissions FROM the panel to switch, but not the other way around. I did this for many years when i had Simply Automated switches. (This probably explains why Simply Automated doesn't sell a split-phase repeater.) 
 
And that was a good price for a PCS repeater.

 

[pete_c]

One other thing here is that the still in place phase coupler breakers are labelled and in the off mode. 
 
After a period of time I probably would have forgotten which breaker I had installed it on even though I have a little map on the fuse panel door and such and I never really look at the panel much these days.