paralysis by analysis

[wkearney99]

DIY and RR2 is, well, interesting.  There's nothing about the switches themselves that makes them any more or less difficult to install than anything else.  That and they can be manually programmed from their faceplates, but it's exceptionally tedious to do that.  Lutron makes a piece of software that's capable of doing all the programming.  Supposedly it's available only to "trained personnel".  Yet there's nothing particularly complicated about it that would require "training" to operate.  It's more about them trying to protect a reseller niche.  
 
That said, lighting is a lot more complicated to set up than you might first imagine.  What sorts of switches go where, controlling what kind of lighting loads, during what activities, etc.  Even with 9 months of advance planning and a year of construction I've still had to fine-tune the lighting plan.  Fifty-plus revisions in the programming and swapping out dimmers and keypads a few times.  
 
I can understand where they're coming from.  Putting a bunch of keypads into the hands of naive homeowners envisioning the Jetsons would likely result in more PR hassles than it'd be worth.  However, relying solely on "integrators" to handle this leaves the door wide open to upstarts entering the market.  It's a tough balance to strike.  Their latest moves with the Caseta line are "sort of" addressing this.  But that's perhaps best discussed in a different thread.  Given the 50 device limit and no keypads I'm not sure it'd be useful for this scenario.

 

[pete_c]

If I'm comparing Elk vs OPII is one obviously superior?

 
No.
 
I hate it when folks answer a question with another question.....that said its good to ask more questions.
 
What do you personally define as "superior" in the automation realm?
 

I recently learned about Haiku Helper which sounds like it combines with HAI to offer a very capable automation system. And there is a mobile app called iRule which looks like it can handle any A/V needs. I wonder if I go in this direction instead of RTI/C4 what I'm giving up?

 
A very capable automation system can be described any way which works - many times its just the measured metrics (real numbers) of what is used or not used that define the capabilities of any automation system. 
 
In the world of Haiku users; they are mostly content and happy campers that I have seen here on the forum.
 

One nice thing is that RTI just recently released a Sonos driver so it now natively supports Sonos.

 
The more drivers/consoles/OS interplay versatility any one in particular automation widget / automation box / software has; the more choices the variety of users have. 
 
Options provide a better personal "fit". 
 
That said Sonos had a nice advertisement during Superbowl 2014.  Wondering about the "shoes" in the advertisement.

 

[Dean Roddey]

So we've made it through denial, anger, and bargaining, and are moving on to depression I guess.
 
Just as an aside, something Hiaku isn't really 'automation', it's more on the control side. I.e. it exposes the raw functionality of the Omni, so it's sort of a software remote control for the Omni. That's not really anything like what I call 'activity oriented' automation, which hides the details of the devices and exposes to the user the means to perform various useful activities, coordinating multiple devices to do that. So it's sort of the difference between the remote control and the automation system. The remote control exposes everything, but you have to do things manually in the right order and understand the consequences. The automation system can provide things like 'watch TV' which causes everything to happen that requires that.
 
iRule is a stop up from that, but it's still more 'automaiton-lite', because it doesn't have a central controller. Each client directly talks to the hardware, so there's no coordination of access. In most cases that'll be ok, but it's not nearly as safe as having a central mediator between clients and hardware being controlled, particularly serially controlled devices of which there are many. They almost never will tolerate two commands coming in at once.

 

[dgage]

I had the sense from this thread that people preferred HAI OPII over Elk but in the last few posts it sounds like there is a preference for Elk. If I'm comparing Elk vs OPII is one obviously superior?

 
Elk and HAI are pretty comparable with HAI having a little more integration with their lighting and their home music system...and maybe a few other things. But if you aren't going to use the HAI lighting or music system or added features, why would you pay the premium? As a security controller and hardware automation controller, my understanding is that they are very comparable and fully capable. You were considering DSC as a cheaper alternative but it isn't as proven although it may be fully comparable on the automation side but I'm not sure. Since price seem to be an issue, and since this will be in a home for years, I suggested you go with Elk for security for a very slight premium. You will then have the option of using Elk's automation in addition to the security, but even if you never use Elk's automation it isn't that much more expensive than DSC. So when I compare DSC to Elk, for me personally I would choose Elk every time...until DSC proves itself more in the automation space. If I were compare Elk to HAI, I feel it is half a dozen of one and 6 of the other UNLESS you don't plan to use HAIs extras, where Elk holds the value edge.
 

A point of clarification. The vacation lighting is controlled by special automated switches rather than by the controller? I did a Google search for automated Lutron switches but nothing turned up.

 
If you're asking about my vacation lighting, after the kitchen, that was one of the driving forces on prioritizing the next lights to be converted to automated switches. I wanted to be able to control the lights from my automation software so they are simply normal RadioRa2 switches and dimmers. I setup a few Events in CQC to control my lights while on vacation. Before we go on vacation, I simply enable those events in CQC and it randomizes lights in several rooms to make it seem like an active household. RadioRa2 has a built-in Vacation Mode that would allow you to setup some Timeclock events to control the lights but since I had CQC, I used that to make the light control more random. I do use some RadioRa2 system Timeclock events such as turning my front door light on at dusk and turning it off by midnight and turning my perimeter motion lights on at dusk and off at dawn.
 

I have a question about your hybrid switches in the kitchen. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned having a regular switch alongside any keypad to maintain usability for all. My concern is for friends that come by, or the housekeeper, who might be intimidated by a keypad and would be more comfortable with a more familiar looking switch. I know that if I went to someone's house I'd be reluctant to start mashing buttons on a keypad if I wasn't sure about the outcome. Is this ever an issue with non-family members?

 
I only have the hybrid keypads in the kitchen right now and only the farthest (breakfast nook) keypad is by itself.  For the most used entrances to the kitchen, I have a regular dimmer switch controlling the primary kitchen lights and then a keypad next to it.  Since its the kitchen, guests really don't have to mess with the lights as they are usually on.  But if needed, most everyone uses the primary switch and then asks about the keypad.  Quick explanation along with the labels and most guests understand.

 

Agree, Work2Play's thread was very informative. Lots of real world use cases there to help get me thinking about things the right way. But I was wondering the same, thing, what UPB can do that Ra2 can't do. And if I understand him it sounds like UPB's biggest advantage is that down the line you can have your switches control almost anything whereas with Ra2 your switches can only control whatever they are directly connected to. I can see how this could give you a lot of flexibility but since I'm starting from scratch I don't think this is going to be very helpful to me. I'll be putting in keypads and switches specifically to control certain lights and will always need them to control those lights, I won't have the flexibility to make a light switch control something else or the light will be uncontrolled. Or am I not understanding?

 
One of the nice things about RadioRa2 is that if your primary controller dies or is unplugged or otherwise not working (I found this out because my RadioRa2 controller had been unplugged accidentally by the kids when I was initially testing it) it will still work like a normal lighting system. By controlling a local load, it increases the reliability by ensuring it doesn't have to rely on an external system for communication, it simply acts like a dumb switch. Now the keypads likely wouldn't work except for the local load they control so that would be a minor issue. So the good side is reliability, the down side is that you don't have quite as much flexibility as Work2Play described with UPB. So in this case the trade off would be reliability vs flexibility. I haven't heard a single complaint about RadioRa2's reliability. I've heard some issues with UPB, namely noisy devices (pumps) in the house or in the nearby neighborhood, but for the most part I've read about UPB being very reliable. I'd still say it is safe to say RadioRa2 is more reliable but we may be comparing 95% against 99%.

 

[wkearney99]

The idea of de-coupling a paddle from it's load is certainly an interesting one.  I could see a few situations where it'd be handy, like using the button to control lights on end tables (using an in-line or on-wall dimmer).  As opposed to the paddle controlling in-ceiling recessed cans.  
 
It'd also be handy to overcome a bad lighting/wiring plan.  But otherwise (IHMO) a good lighting/wiring plan should be one that can work even without automation.  Wire it up as if there was no automation available.  That way if you need to sell the house you can revert to non-automated switches (as automation has, in the past, been a negative for resale).
 
There's no single-button equivalent in the RR2 line.  Lutron has a number of lighting lines (automated and not).  There are some interesting features in the non-automated ones I wish were available in RR2.  Like the Maestro dual button fan timer/light dimmer.  Or something akin to the larger style buttons of UPB switches.  
 
With the advent of multi-protocol savvy controllers there's great potential in using one vendor's features to overcome the limits in others.
 
But as has been pointed out, using some sort of controller does mean that device BETTER STAY WORKING.  This is less problematic than it has been in the past, but it's still something to take into careful consideration.  Human behavior has very high expectations on how lighting is supposed to function.  Deviate too far from the expected norms and you risk making the automation become too noticeable and, quite often, an annoyance.  

 

[Dean Roddey]

Essentially you can just use a scene controller for a decoupled switch. If the point of it is to just send a command to the automation system to invoke an action there, then the scene controller really already does that. If it's cheaper than a real switch you could go that route, right?

 

[tmbrown97]

 One of the nice things about RadioRa2 is that if your primary controller dies or is unplugged or otherwise not working (I found this out because my RadioRa2 controller had been unplugged accidentally by the kids when I was initially testing it) it will still work like a normal lighting system. By controlling a local load, it increases the reliability by ensuring it doesn't have to rely on an external system for communication, it simply acts like a dumb switch. Now the keypads likely wouldn't work except for the local load they control so that would be a minor issue. So the good side is reliability, the down side is that you don't have quite as much flexibility as Work2Play described with UPB. So in this case the trade off would be reliability vs flexibility. I haven't heard a single complaint about RadioRa2's reliability. I've heard some issues with UPB, namely noisy devices (pumps) in the house or in the nearby neighborhood, but for the most part I've read about UPB being very reliable. I'd still say it is safe to say RadioRa2 is more reliable but we may be comparing 95% against 99%.

Just to clarify, this is also the case with UPB - even more so than RadioRa2 - because the switches are self contained there is no central controller in UPB - the only thing you have is a PIM to connect external devices in over RS232.   The UPB switches will transmit upon a touch, and everything that's supposed to respond will hear that action and do what they're supposed to.
 
And for Dean's point - yes you can use a scene controller for a decoupled switch - but what I have is a couple places where the paddle on the wall turns on/off and even dims table lamps exactly as if they were hardwired with a switch that looks identical in the room.  I kinda like this.  And yes some of the differences are more relevant to a retrofit situation where you're ultimately try to overcome some flaws - so having dual-load controllers and flexibility does come in handy; but also for my back yard example - one switch turns on the patio light and the landscape lights from another circuit at one time; that's kinda handy.  I also had a couple rooms that didn't have ceiling lights installed at first so I took the switch and mapped it to a floor lamp - then once the light kits were installed, I just remapped the switch back.
 
Again - not making a push one way or the other as I have nothing against RadioRa2 and was starting to think it could become my new favorite lighting system until I realized how much more flexibility I have with what I have installed today.  The look and feel of them is so much nicer IMO, and the fact that their system will do motion sensors, thermostats and shades all in the same system makes it look pretty attractive.
 
Regarding family and outsiders - what I've noticed is that the only time my house guests touch a light switch was in the bathroom - otherwise during a party, I've taken care of that.  And in the bathroom, I automated that light.  BUT that's why I kept all the simple paddles where they are because they're familiar yet they control what I want them to control.  Regulars to your house (maid) might be thrown off the first time by something unusual but they obviously figure it out - it's not an ongoing stress point.  We also have people come to the house while we're away to check on our pets - but I have it so that when someone enters the house it turns the lights on, and when the countdown timer expires, the lights turn off - so really even that situation is pretty much handled.
 
The people who struggle with the lights are my really young kids who don't quite get it - with a paddle, they press on or off and something happens - but these buttons bounce back and for whatever reason they seem to want to just keep tapping repetitively so the lights either don't come on or they start to dim up from 0%.  My almost-4 yr old still struggles with that.  My nearly 6yr old daughter has had it down for a long time - she hits the scene buttons to light up the whole room; the 2yr old will climb on the couch to reach one of the scene switches and love hitting the button that turns all the lights in the house off; as well as the panic buttons on the alarm panel. :wacko:
 
Lastly - further clarification on Lutron/DIY - anyone can take the training for free and get access to the half-version of the software... they've removed and restrictions to this; it just takes a little effort to get through it which will turn away most.  However if you need a second controller or more than 100 devices, you'll have to work at that as they want to manually approve you for that status; and you can't get a friend to hook you up either most likely since to unlock the other features you have to copy a serial number from your installation and put it on Lutron's site where they'll generate a unique "unlock" key for that specific installation.  Once you do that it totally unlocks the max capabilities of the software. I heard there other features that might be hidden until you unlock the "Inclusive" version but I didn't pay attention when I did it last - I just skip straight to unlocking inclusive when I install it.

 

[pete_c]

Basically if you want to DIY / Play with new automation technologies; then wire for everything as that will be your least expense. 
 
Go baby steps with your automation automating one thing at a time.
 
If you just want to automate or use automation as it exists today; then just make a decision relating to what you want to do and go with it; don't look behind; just look forward to what you decide to do. 
 
Note that the technologies are changing every day and there still is no one way today that is perfect.
 
There are many automation methodologies today that work just fine and will not be going away any time soon.
 
Note that you have been presented with two good lightning control technologies that work for the folks writing about it. 
 
You have also been presented with software and hardware automation technologies and the whats and whys relating to how they work. 
 
You can do both if you want or none at all. 
 
The choice is yours. 
 
You can also just ball valve in indecision or just pay a company to automate for you and blame them if you are not happy.
 
Think about just using the "light switch"  technology for lighting only; rather than a "catch all" of all automation methodology.
 
Personally based on your OP and the continuance of said novella; best to let someone make the automation decisions for you and just pay them whatever methodology you chose; you will feel better about it. 
 
The "feel good" is that its easier to blame someone / some company rather than yourself if something goes awry while concurrently doing the WAF thing telling your spouse that you came up with it all on your own. 
 
It is not an issue truly if you feel overwhelmed and just walk away from it; you will not be faulted.
 
 
 
A little real life story....unrelated to the OP...and just jabber....
 
Many years ago while working on this and that. 
 
An IT peer I worked with suffered a break down in the middle of a very important meeting. 
 
He decided to just tap dance on the conference table in the middle of the meeting. 
 
Kind of funny and kind of sad.  He did tap dance well though. 
 
This was a bit better than his predecessor (another IT peer) who also had suffered a sort of break down; but he never really recovered.
 
Guessing here too there are some folks that enjoy multitasking (simultaneous multithreaded thinking) while other do not enjoy it or cannot do it (easy button). Sometimes (stuff) will cause them physiological damage which is a bad thing. (healthy is a good thing).
 
Afterwards he (IT peer) became a bit of a celebrity on a well known TV syndicated show. 
 
He did also resume work as his normal IT self a couple of years later and literally shut off the celebrity entertainment piece of himself like a light switch (literally).

 

[dgage]

The "feel good" is that its easier to blame someone / some company rather than yourself if something goes awry while concurrently doing the WAF thing telling your spouse that you came up with it all on your own. 
 
It is not an issue truly if you feel overwhelmed and just walk away from it; you will not be faulted.

I think I've said this before in this thread but we are the ones that often put the most pressure on ourselves when in actuality it is rare that we need this pressure. There is no right answer here. Pick something and move forward with it. I'll tell you right now, whether you do it or hire someone else to do it, it absolutely WILL NOT BE PERFECT. And that's okay as long as you manage your expectations. I say go with your best guess and if it doesn't work out as you'd like, change it out a little at a time later. This is a cheaper and easier pill to swallow if you Do It Yourself where you can transition to different technologies a little at a time. If you pay someone for a closed system and you want to replace it later...you might have to scrap the whole thing. I'll say again, you won't get this right the first time but you will get a lot of it right and you'll learn more so that you can get better as you you move forward. So like Nike says...Just Do It. Or like Pete_c said, don't do anything. It won't change the enjoyment of spending time with your family at your house, which is all that matters at the end of the day.