paralysis by analysis

[Dean Roddey]

Can you elaborate? CQC supports it in terms of basic functions or can you control it the same as if you were using the Sonos app?

 
They don't expose all of the functionality, and they don't actually sanction any third party integration at all. But they use UPnP to control the devices, and that's not a private line, it's a publically documented system, so if you can figure out what they are doing you can control them. Some of the interfaces are well defined ones and some are proprietary.
 
We have two drivers, one is in the form of one or our standard 'media renderers', which is designed to use the Sonos as though it were a passive player, and it is fully integrated into our media architecture. It just feeds the Sonos one file at a time, from media in a CQC media repository. So it's not making use any of Sonos specific functionality, but it is very convenient and tightly integrate. And it assumes you aren't using the Sonos interface to do things behind its back.
 
The other is a Zone Player specific driver, which is not as tightly integrated but lets you control the player from CQC as well as from the Sonos interface. You can manage the playlist, select playlists, do transport control, volume, mute, see metadata on what's currently playing, etc...
 
Until last month it also provided grouping control, but a Sonos firmware update has broken that, at least from Windows' point of view. The Windows UPnP client rejects their grouping service as invalid and won't let us get to it. Of course since Sonos doesn't sanction any third party interfacing they probably don't care, or maybe even think this is a good thing. Some of our Sonos using customers aren't happy with them in general, complaining of recent updates breaking a lot of stuff in general.

 

[wkearney99]

 Some of our Sonos using customers aren't happy with them in general, complaining of recent updates breaking a lot of stuff in general.

 
Agreed.  The older client software had it's issues but the latest updates are sort of worse.  Too much g-d 'oversimplification' born from trying to imitate IOS and Metro interfaces.  It's all ending up harder to use, not easier!

 

[dgage]

I'm not sure I follow you wrt the Venstar. Do you control yours with its own remote or through your HA?

Pre-HA thermostat. My thermostat location is in the upper hallway and the temperature was greatly different than the bedrooms. I wanted a solution to move the thermostat to the bedroom. I could have moved wires but the Venstar unit did what I wanted and worked great for years. It consists of a receiver and transmitter so that I could put the thermostat control in the bedroom while leaving the thermostat wires in their location. (http://www.venstar.com/Thermostats/WirelessR/). You mentioned Venstar and I was just giving feedback that they seem to make nice equipment.

As for the Russound and Nuvo, what older streaming systems are you referring to? Or do you mean older streaming services, such as Pandora? That's probably the oldest one.
 
I know both Russound and Nuvo can handle online streaming but I don't plan to use them for those purposes. I plan to strictly use them for audio distribution, the only Sonos I will have is a Sonos Connect which will be one of the sources to Russound or Nuvo. The Sonos Connect is compatible with far more streaming services than anyone else. And it is the only one that works with Songza and Google Play Music which are the only streaming services I use. I've also started using the brand new Amazon Prime Music service and expect Sonos to support this as well since they already support the Amazon Cloud Player.

At this point, Russound and Nuvo have released several "media streaming" pieces of hardware. Some of these were for streaming from a computer or NAS. Some also included support for streaming services such as Pandora or Rhapsody (some of the older services). Some of this hardware has not been supported well BASED ON MY RESEARCH. That is simply my point. I don't know how much Russound and Nuvo have sold of a given unit and whether their sales will mean they will continue to support a given streaming device as well as services. And yes, there have also been long delays as they support newer streaming services...I remember Spotify was big at the time and people clamoring for support.

As I said, only using the Sonos as an audio source, just Sonos Connect, no Connect:Amp's.

I also use Sonos Connects and then output to 7-channel HT amps for my whole home audio distribution. I didn't want to have underpowered ceiling speakers with 8 or 16 channels at 40w.

Related to CQC and Sonos, I plan to use the separate Sonos software. I switch apps on my computer, tablet, phone so it is a natural paradigm and won't bother me a bit to switch to a separate app that controls everything I need.

However, based on some of what I read about JRiver on AVS, I may be switching to that for my HT as well as distributed audio.

 

[wkearney99]

.I also use Sonos Connects and then output to 7-channel HT amps for my whole home audio distribution. I didn't want to have underpowered ceiling speakers with 8 or 16 channels at 40w.

However, based on some of what I read about JRiver on AVS, I may be switching to that for my HT as well as distributed audio.

 
JRMC is an adventure.  It's got a ton of features that are "almost there", but have been than way for many years.  Not quite close enough and then they seem to wander off after other shiny new features.  I love it, I've bought (and upgrades) it but I wouldn't think of inflicting it on my wife for actual in-person use.
 
As for speakers, the typical 35W level for most in-ceiling setups is more than enough.  Sure, for a theater or entertainment room you'd want to consider more.  But for bringing up a fairly robust amount of music throughout the house that's plenty of wattage.  I was skeptical but upon trying it found it was capable of being plenty loud for most reasonably sized rooms.

 

[dgage]

Such mean things said about JRMC... Does that refer to using JRMC19 to be the home theater brain (replace bluray and preamp), whole home audio, or both? What about using CQC to focus the functionality, would that help any? Thanks for your feedback.

 

[wkearney99]

No, not mean, but it's been a bone of contention for ages.  It refers to using it for any of them.  Srsly, it's an amazing tool for managing media and editing metadata, nothing else comes remotely close to it. 
 
In fairness I've not picked apart MC19.  But if it's like, hell, any of the versions since MC7 it's going to seem like a great thing... until you actually start pushing it...

 

[dgage]

No, not mean, but it's been a bone of contention for ages.  It refers to using it for any of them.  Srsly, it's an amazing tool for managing media and editing metadata, nothing else comes remotely close to it. 
 
In fairness I've not picked apart MC19.  But if it's like, hell, any of the versions since MC7 it's going to seem like a great thing... until you actually start pushing it...

Thanks for the feedback. I'm looking at it replacing my bluray, preamp, and DSP so I'll be pushing it...sounds like I'll need to seriously vet it before throwing all of my cards into that basket. Some are also using a DSP/time domain FIR filter software called AudioLense XO that I'll be looking into as well. For the multi-channel DAC to amp connection, there are two that I've seen used...Solid State Alpha MX 4-16 and Lynx Aurora 16.

 

[wkearney99]

Yeah, you will absolutely need to run it through some serious paces.  It's got all the buzzwords and does support quite a wide range of configurations.  Getting those configs to remain that way has been something of a challenge with past versions and the WAF.  Much like the old days of "DON'T YOU DARE TOUCH THE EQUALIZER" threats from Dad... MC has had some likewise finicky things...
 
As for multichannel, you're not entertaining the notion of synchronized outputs, are you?  I've yet to come across anything software-based that absolutely reliable at keeping multiple outputs properly in-sync across a range of input sources.  And it only takes mere milliseconds of difference to be immediately noticeable to even a layman's hearing...   
 
This is why for whole house it's pretty hard to beat analog distribution.

 

[tmbrown97]

Just something to throw out there - the russound media server provides 3 airplay targets - so if you have an iphone or ipad or ipod touch laying around, you have a media streamer that can play any music source since they all get to iOS before anywhere else.  You don't necessarily have to tie in Sonos just for that; we use airplay all the time around here and actually like the fact that as we jump in the car and drive off, it disconnects and hooks into the car right where it left off, silencing the house at the same time.

 

[uscpsycho]

Thank guys. Needed to give me brain a break over the long weekend.
 
Just read this, and stuff like taht makes me think everything I'm doing today is on the verge of being radically overpriced and obsolete. If things ever become truly standardized what happens to all these closed and proprietary systems? All the more reason to use as much open hardware as possible so if I ever move away from CQC/RTI/C4 my stuff will still work with whatever comes next. Hopefully.
 
 
With respect to alarm panels, a lot of attention goes to ELK/HAI here but a couple of integrators proposed using a GE NX-8E in conjunction with both RTI and C4. What's the deal with the GE? What's the deal with this thing, the panel is a fraction of the price of ELK and HAI. My assumption is the GE is bare bones, leaving the heavy lifting to the automation. Is that right? What is the downside (there must be some)? These are high end guys suggesting the GE, is that because my overall cost ends up higher by going with the GE? Or are the features of ELK and HAI superfluous is I'm using automation?
 
 

Just something to throw out there - the russound media server provides 3 airplay targets - so if you have an iphone or ipad or ipod touch laying around, you have a media streamer that can play any music source since they all get to iOS before anywhere else.  You don't necessarily have to tie in Sonos just for that; we use airplay all the time around here and actually like the fact that as we jump in the car and drive off, it disconnects and hooks into the car right where it left off, silencing the house at the same time.

 
When you say three airplay targets does that mean you can use three idevices as sources? So you'd actually have to select the music you want to listen to on the idevice itself instead of putting it in the closet? And the devices would connect by wi-fi?
 
I'm not sure how that's better than having a Sonos Connect in the closet and being able to change what you're listening to with any device using the Sonos app. The ability to leave the house and pick up where I left off is useless to me because I only use Android phones so I wouldn't bring my phone and an additional idevice just so I could hear the end of a song I left in the middle of. Plus if I was an iPhone user I don't think I'd want to put that much drain on my battery while I'm listening at home. Am I missing something?

 

[tmbrown97]

If you're not an iOS user then the airplay stuff is pointless; go Sonos.  We are a family full of iOS users so any phone/ipad can be a music source.  Drain to battery is negligible; remote is always in your hand.  If you want to switch songs or adjust volume, you don't even have to fully unlock the thing - the volume buttons on the side control the airplay music, song titles are on the lock screen, along with pause/skip buttons.  iOS also has phenomenal in-car integration as well, so it works very well for my family.  I know android users probably do bluetooth to the car but it sounds absolutely horrible in comparison to what a direct-connect in the car or airplay can do in the home.  With Sonos you'd get the phone control with direct-connect quality so that seems like the next best.  I played with a sonos system recently and it definitely is a nice system; I just find that I like airplay even better because of the instantaneous accessibility.
 
Re the alarm panels - AFAIK, the GE will work just fine when you're using a different system to do all the heavy lifting.  A lot of people in the Elk/HAI camp are tinkerers and use the panels to do a lot more, and they like to keep critical automation/security functions within the logic of the security panel since it'll going to hold out the longest in a power outage.  An Elk can control your water shutoff, monitor flood sensors, open/close garage doors, flash lights; even turn off your HVAC if a fire is detected.  Lots of additional features you can get into while still being self-contained.  Your automation controller will at best be on a limited backup battery - so you may have 30 minutes of protection, but that's it.  Kinda just depends on what all you think you may want in the future.  Integrators seem to always go to the GE or DSC panels because they're simple and cheap.

 

[Automate]

Your automation controller will at best be on a limited backup battery - so you may have 30 minutes of protection, but that's it.

Not necessarily,  I run my automation on an Atom powered PC.  No CPU fan, no chassis fan and SSD so zero moving parts.    Pulls less than 15 watts.  For a reasonable price you can get an extended battery UPS and run for 15 hours or more.

 

[pete_c]

Here I am an automation hobby person; gathering much of my stuff right from the Cocoontech forum.
 
The above said though doesn't have anything really to do with your question.
 
The two combination security and automation panels have been around a very long time.
 
The GE comparison is an apples to oranges thing.
 
Many folks are now DIYing the integration of security and automation. 
 
I am hesitant regarding dependencies of software for security; but that is me. 
 
One software "glitch" can truly be a life safety nightmare.  Note that this is only my opinion and based on experience.
 
While I do power backup the little box running the automation software, POE connections, et al type of stuff;  it doesn't prevent me from doing the do of over engineering logical processes which are sometimes not logical at all. (well human nature).
 
I leave my HAI OPII panel mostly to do it's own thing with little interaction from me. 
 
The DIY installation was easy as the included documentation / this forum helped me a bunch.
 
I play all hours of the day or night with my software trying to pushing just a little more (monty python like).
 
The "Paralysis by Analysis" automation novella forum thread stands at 102 replies and 2692 views this morning.
 
Decisionwise where are you at?  (1%-100% automation planning / actions?)

 

[bbrendon]

As for Alarm panels, I'd get something cheap and easy like DSC. Then connect the DSC to software like openhab or CQC to do what HAI/Omni does. The software method gives you a bazillion more options on what you can do than the omni/hai stuff.

 

[pete_c]

uscpsycho,
So what's up?  (automation novella continues)