paralysis by analysis

[uscpsycho]

Re the alarm panels - AFAIK, the GE will work just fine when you're using a different system to do all the heavy lifting.  A lot of people in the Elk/HAI camp are tinkerers and use the panels to do a lot more, and they like to keep critical automation/security functions within the logic of the security panel since it'll going to hold out the longest in a power outage.  An Elk can control your water shutoff, monitor flood sensors, open/close garage doors, flash lights; even turn off your HVAC if a fire is detected.  Lots of additional features you can get into while still being self-contained.  Your automation controller will at best be on a limited backup battery - so you may have 30 minutes of protection, but that's it.  Kinda just depends on what all you think you may want in the future.  Integrators seem to always go to the GE or DSC panels because they're simple and cheap.

 
I have had integrators suggest GE, DSC and HAI.
 
I assume the tinkerers in the Elk/HAI camp are using DIY automation like CQC. So if CQC can do anything the HAI can do, why bother with both? Won't a GE/DSC panel handle the critical security functions in case of a power outage even if the automation controller has lost power? Or is it the case with GE/DSC that the automation controller is actually handling all security functions? If so then what exactly is the GE/DSC panel doing? Is GS/DSC just an interface for the automation system to control the alarm components?
 
Having basic security during a power outage makes a lot of sense but I'm not sure what good it is to have automation control during a power outage. If I've lost power in the house it's not like the lights, garage doors, hvac, etc. are going to work even if the alarm panel is still running off a battery.
 

I am hesitant regarding dependencies of software for security; but that is me. 
 
One software "glitch" can truly be a life safety nightmare.  Note that this is only my opinion and based on experience.
 
The "Paralysis by Analysis" automation novella forum thread stands at 102 replies and 2692 views this morning.
 
Decisionwise where are you at?  (1%-100% automation planning / actions?)

 
I hear you regarding the dependencies of security on software. But if I have a DSC/GE for my security, is my security still dependent on my automation software? Won't the DSC/GE alarm panel handle security even in the complete absence of any kind of home automation? Or do I need Elk/HAI if I want to make security independent of automation?
 

As for Alarm panels, I'd get something cheap and easy like DSC. Then connect the DSC to software like openhab or CQC to do what HAI/Omni does. The software method gives you a bazillion more options on what you can do than the omni/hai stuff.

 
So what you're saying is there is nothing HAI/Elk can do that a GE/DSC panel in combination with CQC/C4/RTI can't do? 
 
Did I just ask the same question three times to three different people? LOL
 

uscpsycho,
So what's up?  (automation novella continues)

 
I am truly feeling burnt out. The paralysis is winning. The more time passes the more my enthusiasm for this project fades. I wanted a lot of cool bells and whistles which, when I think about it, are either not that useful or not possible/practical yet. When I really think about it when I'm home, what the heck needs to be automated? Is it really that much easier or more convenient to turn on a light by taking out a wireless controller and going into the lighting management controls than it is to walk over to the wall switch and flip it? I don't need the ability to press one button that will turn on the fireplace and soft music, dim the lights, drop the TV from the ceiling, etc. Thanks to movies and TV this is the picture people have when they think of home automation but that's not reality for most people.
 
I'm beginning to feel like maybe I've spent all this time trying to find a solution to a problem I don't have. I decided I wanted home automation because I love technology and gadgets and it seemed like infusing my house with that would be a great idea. But I didn't really think about what I wanted to automate. The most useful thing for me would have been video distribution but automating that became impractical due to the number of TV's so that piece is scrapped.
 
At the end of the day I think the thing that matters most to me is being connected to my house when I'm away. That is being able to monitor my surveillance cameras, getting alerts from my alarm and my cameras of any activity, remotely giving someone access to the house, making sure the alarm is on if I forgot to turn it on, garage door is closed if I forgot to close it, doors are locked if I forgot to lock them and lights are off if I forgot to turn them off. I'd like everything to turn off when I arm the alarm. I'd like the lights to simulate being home when I'm away for extended periods. Practical stuff like that. Can't HAI/Elk alone do all this basic stuff?
 
I'm even starting to question whether or not I need Lutron Radio RA2, which I was 100% sold on. It seems like the main use of Lutron is setting lighting scenes which sounds cool in theory but I don't think I'd use all that much. 99% of the time my "scenes" are lights on and lights off; I don't need Lutron for that. And there are $5 night lights I can put in the hallway that will turn on when they sense motion. I feel like the coolness factor of one-touch scenes is greater than the real utility. Is having preconfigured scenes really great but I don't have the foresight to realize it? 
 
I know that if I want lighting control Lutron is the most reliable. So I understand that, I just question whether or not I really care about scenes which seems to be the primary function. Now, using Lutron to integrate my shades with my HVAC sounds great to make my home more energy efficient but again, I don't know how much difference it REALLY makes (real world electric bill savings) and not sure it would be worth it to change all the shades in the house just to automate them. If there is a measurable difference in efficiency I might rather spend my money here. Thoughts?
 
I want distributed streaming audio but don't need more than two, maybe three zones. I certainly don't need the ability to send a different stream to each room so two or three Sonos Connect with a multizone receiver should do the trick there. But if the receiver is in a closet I'm not sure how I would control it, so automation makes sense here.
 
There is one thing that makes me feel like RTI/C4 has a huge advantage and that is in their Android apps. I look at the reviews of the Android app for HAI and others and it's a train wreck -- they freeze, crash, fail to connect, misreport status, etc. But RTI/C4 Android apps appear to be stable and well maintained; so since remote management is really important to me the reliability of their Android apps may be the thing that makes me go in the RTI/C4 direction.
 
At one point I thought that putting in the automation now was a good way to future proof but the way things are going I can't help but think that control systems as we know them will become obsolete. Especially if Apple and/or Google can make a lot of progress towards standardization. IFTTT has scratched the surface of home automation but can you imagine how powerful it will be in a few years as the technology advances? There probably won't be much you can't do with an IFTTT recipe, and a lot you can't do with a traditional automation system. I mentioned this in passing before and an apples/oranges analogy was made, which is true today but in time it will be apples to apples. 
 
Sorry for the looooong post. You asked for an update and sometimes just writing my thoughts out helps me see things more clearly. I revised this a million times before posting because it forced me to think everything through. So this was a good exercise for me but I'd appreciate any thoughts about the big picture. 

 

[pete_c]

You are helping other folks looking to do the same.
 

At the end of the day I think the thing that matters most to me is being connected to my house when I'm away. That is being able to monitor my surveillance cameras, getting alerts from my alarm and my cameras of any activity, remotely giving someone access to the house, making sure the alarm is on if I forgot to turn it on, garage door is closed if I forgot to close it, doors are locked if I forgot to lock them and lights are off if I forgot to turn them off. I'd like everything to turn off when I arm the alarm. I'd like the lights to simulate being home when I'm away for extended periods. Practical stuff like that. 

 
You can do all that. 
 
Yup here I would remote control my home when traveling on business in the EU/UK just to bug my wife mostly in the early 2000s (well with GPRS - SLOW modem like speeds internet).  Most though if we were gone or on vacation; never paid attention; mostly cuz it worked.  A change of status trigger will just tickle my phone.  Whether I look at the home (well CCTV or Web page) or not really didn't matter much.
 

Can't HAI/Elk alone do all this basic stuff?

 
Yes.
 
Personally here went with the HAI OPII (X2); small footprint stuff.  That said one box is very spacious today and the other box is totally full. 
 
 
The Elk panel is a bit larger; you can start with a very basic setup at a reasonable cost and build up your automation.

 

[wkearney99]

The road is littered with the dead remains of countless attempts to 'standardize' home automation. It'd be a fool that waited for google's attention span to peter out or apple to attempt to gouge for ridiculously proprietary, crippled crap.

If you're prepared to sit on the sidelines doing nothing then, sure, anything might be possible. Meanwhile there's some pretty workable stuff out there today.

 

[dgage]

uscpsycho,

I have RadioRa2 and the only scene in my house is an All Off (kitchen all off) button in the kitchen. Once I finish my HT, I will likely have a Watch Movie scene but not yet. For me, my first need was a wiring issue that RadioRa2 addressed. My kitchen has one entry from the garage, another opening to the living room/primary hall, and a single switch for the breakfast nook. Well, we were redoing our kitchen and the breakfast nook no longer exists as I put in a long L-shaped island. So I asked my electrician friend about putting a 3-way for the breakfast nook switch next to the other two entry switches and he wasn't excited. I also really didn't want so many switches in a row, so my solution was to utilize 3 hybrid keypads. They look awesome and work outstanding and addressed my first need. I expanded the lighting to address my next need/desire, light control on vacation so I put automated switches in the locations I wanted to control to make it seem like we were home even if away. From there, it became more about convenience and living in the house to identify what we wanted.

For security, I think the safer decision is to just get the Elk as it has security and home automation at a cost effective price. If you only use it as security, no big deal but my guess is you'll get some home automation use out of it even if you end up with a hardware controller or software. That would get the finalize the security decision with the OPTION to do more with the panel.

Sonos sounds like a great deal for you for streaming around the house. I definitely like my Sonos system.

One of the things I had to learn and it was a long, hard fought lesson is that home automation is not about cutting edge technology...it is about reliability. So I fully understand your frustration with the cool things we can do but so far away from having a "full" solution that does all these "reasonable" home automation use cases. All I can say is its not going to get better anytime soon...I just don't see it. So I'd recommend jumping in and enjoying it while you can as the Internet of Things will need 3-5 years to really shake out.

Good luck.

David

 

[tmbrown97]

I started my automation endeavor pretty slowly.  I've been exposed to it as we had X10 around the house when I was a young kid; I tried it but it never worked in my houses.  Finally I decided I needed a good security system and went with the Elk because, of all things, I thought their keypad looked better (than HAI) - and they were far more DIY friendly at the time.  Note - this was back before iPhone and Android came out.  I used to use a windows phone to RDP into my home office computer to adjust the lights/sprinklers/etc.   I had a couple lights automated in that house but really didn't see much advantage to it - except for a couple specific scenarios like the garage - all lights come on instead of the opener when the door opens; or the exterior lights to follow the schedule and not have to keep adjusting the time.  I liked that as I expanded the capabilities of that system, I could control it all from one place.
 
Fast forward - I moved into a new house... this one is much larger; I started a family so kids are now in the mix as well.  Upon moving in, 2 things were obvious... 1) WAY too many light switches around the house to deal with and 2) the lights were just too bright at times and needed dimming.  So I went with UPB - and the more I work with RadioRa2 I'm still happy with that decision - because several of the cool things I did with it just aren't possible with RadioRa2.  I can give several examples in my house.  I'm personally not too fond of keypads so I love what I can do with UPB.
 
I also purchased licenses for Elve and HomeSeer 3.0 Pro.  Elve I had doing X10RF to Elk rules and a little bit of advanced logic taking weather info from the internet to talk to my indoor thermostats to tell me the outside temperature on the display and also to make a light flash on the thermostats when conditions were optimal for using the whole house fan instead of the AC.  But I still do all my interaction with the panel via eKeypad for my iPhone or M1toGo.  That's why I like the Elk because even if you don't get around to buying a full app, or if you do and later have system issues as I did with the computer running Elve - then at least all my basic stuff still works just fine - or better than fine, as it hasn't left me starving to do more with 3rd party software.  I didn't lose that much when it went down.
 
So - maybe that's an option for you too - start with a better security system now that it'll take you a while to outgrow - then when you do, the HA Apps will still be there waiting.  I still know I'll do the advanced apps at some point, or just throw in RTI or Crestron - but at this point I haven't needed it yet.

 

[tmbrown97]

I documented some of the tricks I accomplished with UPB in a blog post here: http://cocoontech.com/forums/blog/5/entry-434-fun-with-simply-automated-upb/

 

[dgage]

Work2Play - Nice post with some great info.

It looks to me like the only extra feature UPB has, but it's a nice one, is the ability to double-tap the switches. Other than that I didn't read about anything that RadioRa2 couldn't do. But then again, I can use a few strategically placed hybrid keypads to address things like All Off.
NOTE: I'm not trying to make this about UPB vs RadioRa2 and which is better...I have no dog in that fight...but in this thread, these are the two being compared and I believe they are two of the more reliable DIY solutions.

Cool stuff and I think your post especially pertains to this thread about how lighting automation gets used in the real world to solve real (albeit first world) issues.

 

[dgage]

Oh, one question I did want to ask about is latency with UPB and your HA software. For lights that may not be directly load-controlled, what is the time between pressing a button and the light turning on via HA software action?

With RadioRa2, everything is instantaneous with the ability to have a shorter or longer delay for fade-in/out. Even with something like motion control, when using the RadioRa2 motions, it is almost instantaneous. When I go through my HA software, there is a noticeable delay where the command goes to the RadioRa2 main repeater, command recognized by the HA software, and then the HA software tells the main repeater to turn on a specific load.

 

[Dean Roddey]

I'm not sure how long the delay is for the msg to go out that motion has occurred, but the driver would typically have an average of maybe 50ms to see the message, up to a bit over 100ms. Once it sees it, the trigger is queued up immediately and should go out every quickly to the event server, which should also process it very quickly.
 
Obviously there are more steps involved so it can't be quite as fast as internal, but as long as the Lutron sends out the motion msg very quickly, it shouldn't be a whole lot of difference. Once the driver queues the trigger, it's all event driven from there to the action running. It would also of course depend on how many other msgs are coming out of the Lutron as well, since they have to be processed in the order received.
 
How long a delay are we talking about?

 

[dgage]

Dean,

I actually have a pair of Pico remotes at the head of our bed, which has 5 buttons (on, off, up, down, preset dim) but I wanted to use the center "preset dim" button for the bathroom night light while using the rest of the buttons to control our master bedroom lights. So I setup the Pico remotes in the RadioRa2 software so that they would get an Integration ID but didn't set them up in the software to control a load. In CQC, I setup an event for the Pico remotes to turn on the appropriate light based on button pushed. There is about a 1 second delay from pushing the button until the lights turn on or off. I should also mention, these are the lights that my wife notices CQC/RadioRa2 is offline...which means usually at night before she goes to bed...so it's late when I find out about it...and I'm tired after a long day.

If it matters, the RadioRa2 is setup via ethernet through a gigabit switch. Of course, the command is just a few bytes but who knows how much of a latency is within each of the steps between the push of the remote button, the RadioRa2 master controller, CQC Event, back to the RadioRa2 master controller, and then to the light load itself. It's just something we've gotten used to but it is also why I asked about the UPB latency...not that I'm changing.

David

 

[tmbrown97]

dgage - the other difference in UPB vs. RadioRa2 is that the switch action can be de-coupled from what it is actually wired to.  So a traditional paddle can be wired to nothing at all but when you hit it, it's controlling a lamp module.  Or for my kitchen example, the one paddle is actually controlling 4 totally separate loads (one of which is on an appliance module) seamlessly with on/off and dim up/down to where you'd never know they weren't all wired on the same circuit.  In my Guest Bathroom example, none of the switches control what they're physically wired to - they're all talking to each other and controlling something else in the room... and this is done without an automation controller in the middle.
 
The only place an automation controller comes into play is if I'm using an X10RF device or I'm triggering lights based on a security action - and in both of those cases I'm seeing maybe a half-second.
 
The switches themselves have a programmable delay from 350 to 750ms specifically to decide how long to wait to see if a double-tap is coming or if they should act on the single-tap action.  I keep mine set pretty low.  I actually use that as a safety feature in a few places - I use double-tap actions on a short window to keep the kids from being able to activate things like the fireplace or the all-on/all-off buttons.
 
I'm working on a RadioRa2 project right now where I don't like what the switches at the entrance to the room are physically wired to.  I hoped I could have the paddle control something else in the room, and put a hybrid keypad next to it for everything else - but with RadioRa2 that's just not possible.
 
Don't get me wrong - I'm not knocking RadioRa2 at all - I think it's a great system... I was just surprised to find that it couldn't do some of these advanced things that my cheaper-seeming UPB system can do with ease.

 

[dgage]

Thanks Work2Play...that is good info.

 

[pete_c]

The novella continues.....let add some stuff here....
 
1 - paralysis by analysis ("the wiki")
 
Analysis paralysis or paralysis of analysis is an anti-pattern, the state of over-analyzing (or over-thinking) a situation so that a decision or action is never taken, in effect paralyzing the outcome. A decision can be treated as over-complicated, with too many detailed options, so that a choice is never made, rather than try something and change if a major problem arises. A person might be seeking the optimal or "perfect" solution upfront, and fear making any decision which could lead to erroneous results, when on the way to a better solution.
 
The phrase describes a situation where the opportunity cost of decision analysis exceeds the benefits that could be gained by enacting some decision, or an informal or non-deterministic situation where the sheer quantity of analysis overwhelms the decision-making process itself, thus preventing a decision. The phrase applies to any situation where analysis may be applied to help make a decision and may be a dysfunctional element of organizational behavior. This is often phrased as paralysis by analysis, in contrast to extinct by instinct (making a fatal decision based on hasty judgment or a gut-reaction).
 
2 - Nephophobia - in a new virtual sense....
 
Nephophobia is the fear of clouds. The origin of the word nepho is Greek (meaning clouds) and phobia is Greek (meaning fear). Nephophobia is considered to be a specific phobia, which is discussed on the home page. Nephophobia is also related to Homichlophobia (fear of fog or humidity) and Nebulaphobia (fear of fog and clouds).
 
Personally I like to watch the weather and clouds....but having written that I have an old friend who's son (well now older son with a physics degree) who has demonstrated to me that he suffers from Nephophobia.  Saw this one day having lunch with him and his father in a restaurant with many windows offering a picturistic view of the surrounding approaching storm.  Thinking the fear was instilled by his grandmother many years ago for whatever reasons.
 
Yup; walked with a friend yesterday attached to an Android application which was measuring his physical activities (he had some major vascular complications over the last year or so). The application and connection provided beneficial points to reduce the amount of monies he pays for his health care.  More points = % reduction in health insurance.

 

[uscpsycho]

I had the sense from this thread that people preferred HAI OPII over Elk but in the last few posts it sounds like there is a preference for Elk. If I'm comparing Elk vs OPII is one obviously superior?
 
I recently learned about Haiku Helper which sounds like it combines with HAI to offer a very capable automation system. And there is a mobile app called iRule which looks like it can handle any A/V needs. I wonder if I go in this direction instead of RTI/C4 what I'm giving up? 
 
One nice thing is that RTI just recently released a Sonos driver so it now natively supports Sonos.
 

uscpsycho,

I have RadioRa2 and the only scene in my house is an All Off (kitchen all off) button in the kitchen. Once I finish my HT, I will likely have a Watch Movie scene but not yet. For me, my first need was a wiring issue that RadioRa2 addressed. My kitchen has one entry from the garage, another opening to the living room/primary hall, and a single switch for the breakfast nook. Well, we were redoing our kitchen and the breakfast nook no longer exists as I put in a long L-shaped island. So I asked my electrician friend about putting a 3-way for the breakfast nook switch next to the other two entry switches and he wasn't excited. I also really didn't want so many switches in a row, so my solution was to utilize 3 hybrid keypads. They look awesome and work outstanding and addressed my first need. I expanded the lighting to address my next need/desire, light control on vacation so I put automated switches in the locations I wanted to control to make it seem like we were home even if away. From there, it became more about convenience and living in the house to identify what we wanted.

For security, I think the safer decision is to just get the Elk as it has security and home automation at a cost effective price. If you only use it as security, no big deal but my guess is you'll get some home automation use out of it even if you end up with a hardware controller or software. That would get the finalize the security decision with the OPTION to do more with the panel.

 
A point of clarification. The vacation lighting is controlled by special automated switches rather than by the controller? I did a Google search for automated Lutron switches but nothing turned up.
 
I have a question about your hybrid switches in the kitchen. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned having a regular switch alongside any keypad to maintain usability for all. My concern is for friends that come by, or the housekeeper, who might be intimidated by a keypad and would be more comfortable with a more familiar looking switch. I know that if I went to someone's house I'd be reluctant to start mashing buttons on a keypad if I wasn't sure about the outcome. Is this ever an issue with non-family members?
 

I started my automation endeavor pretty slowly.  I've been exposed to it as we had X10 around the house when I was a young kid; I tried it but it never worked in my houses.  Finally I decided I needed a good security system and went with the Elk because, of all things, I thought their keypad looked better (than HAI) - and they were far more DIY friendly at the time.  Note - this was back before iPhone and Android came out.  I used to use a windows phone to RDP into my home office computer to adjust the lights/sprinklers/etc.   I had a couple lights automated in that house but really didn't see much advantage to it - except for a couple specific scenarios like the garage - all lights come on instead of the opener when the door opens; or the exterior lights to follow the schedule and not have to keep adjusting the time.  I liked that as I expanded the capabilities of that system, I could control it all from one place.
 
Fast forward - I moved into a new house... this one is much larger; I started a family so kids are now in the mix as well.  Upon moving in, 2 things were obvious... 1) WAY too many light switches around the house to deal with and 2) the lights were just too bright at times and needed dimming.  So I went with UPB - and the more I work with RadioRa2 I'm still happy with that decision - because several of the cool things I did with it just aren't possible with RadioRa2.  I can give several examples in my house.  I'm personally not too fond of keypads so I love what I can do with UPB.
 
I also purchased licenses for Elve and HomeSeer 3.0 Pro.  Elve I had doing X10RF to Elk rules and a little bit of advanced logic taking weather info from the internet to talk to my indoor thermostats to tell me the outside temperature on the display and also to make a light flash on the thermostats when conditions were optimal for using the whole house fan instead of the AC.  But I still do all my interaction with the panel via eKeypad for my iPhone or M1toGo.  That's why I like the Elk because even if you don't get around to buying a full app, or if you do and later have system issues as I did with the computer running Elve - then at least all my basic stuff still works just fine - or better than fine, as it hasn't left me starving to do more with 3rd party software.  I didn't lose that much when it went down.
 
So - maybe that's an option for you too - start with a better security system now that it'll take you a while to outgrow - then when you do, the HA Apps will still be there waiting.  I still know I'll do the advanced apps at some point, or just throw in RTI or Crestron - but at this point I haven't needed it yet.

 
Lately I'm starting to think I'm going to go in this direction. Am I wrong in thinking that HAI is easier to configure than CQC? If I go in a DIY direction it might be better to start with something that is more user friendly. It sounds like CQC can do just about anything the other systems can do but I wonder what kind of control I'll be giving up with HAI vs RTI/C4? Of course, the flip side is this control will come at a cost because I'll have to pay someone to make it do anything I want to do...
 

Work2Play - Nice post with some great info.

It looks to me like the only extra feature UPB has, but it's a nice one, is the ability to double-tap the switches. Other than that I didn't read about anything that RadioRa2 couldn't do. But then again, I can use a few strategically placed hybrid keypads to address things like All Off.
NOTE: I'm not trying to make this about UPB vs RadioRa2 and which is better...I have no dog in that fight...but in this thread, these are the two being compared and I believe they are two of the more reliable DIY solutions.

Cool stuff and I think your post especially pertains to this thread about how lighting automation gets used in the real world to solve real (albeit first world) issues.

 
Radio Ra2 is considered DIY?
 
Agree, Work2Play's thread was very informative. Lots of real world use cases there to help get me thinking about things the right way. But I was wondering the same, thing, what UPB can do that Ra2 can't do. And if I understand him it sounds like UPB's biggest advantage is that down the line you can have your switches control almost anything whereas with Ra2 your switches can only control whatever they are directly connected to. I can see how this could give you a lot of flexibility but since I'm starting from scratch I don't think this is going to be very helpful to me. I'll be putting in keypads and switches specifically to control certain lights and will always need them to control those lights, I won't have the flexibility to make a light switch control something else or the light will be uncontrolled. Or am I not understanding?

 

[pete_c]

Radio Ra2 is considered DIY?

 
Yes and no.