paralysis by analysis

[pete_c]

I'm starting to get the feeling that just about the only thing I need to do right now is prewire for speakers, TV's, and touchscreens. Run cat cable to everywhere I can dream of.

 
Yup.
 

And install the alarm, security cameras and Lutron.

 
I prewired most of the LV for a tear down and new build in Florida.  An alarm company did the prewire for the alarm stuff.  I just changed the central wiring location.  They were very good at what they did.
 

Stupid question but for irrigation control do I need to prewire for that?

 
I had a Rainbird irrigation company do the irrigation installation. They used a sprinkler system cluster of wires.  (thinking I have enough for 16 zones). I did tweak out where and how I wanted it installed.  I also had the company add multiple chases outside for more LV stuff (berms etc).  I added extra water meters and just purchased an electronic valve (should have purchased two).  The software that I use can be run on any PC and works with any methodology of control currently available.
 
http://mcssprinklers.com/
 

Your sprinkler DIY is way over the head of anything I can do. That would not be DIY for me. Anything that involves electrical wiring for the house is out of my comfort zone.

 
Really it was just a replacement of the Rainbird ESP irrigation controller with a connection to a computer (you can do RS-232, ethernet, wired or wireless these days).  Such that it was moving the controller wires from the legacy system to the new controller.
 

Can you share a link to information about the POE capacitance tablets? Are these running Android? Not sure how else they could work with your DIY system.

 
These are custom DIY Intel / Atom CPU based devices from a company called Openpeak.  The hardware has been modded along with the EFI and or BIOS boot.  Today I am using many prototypes from this company.  These run Android, Windows or Linux.  Currently most of the touch screens are running windows (almost embedded and Windows 8.1).  Other touchscreens are Atom / core duo based.  Then too have Omnitouch 5.7's and Omnitouch 5.7e's.

 

[wkearney99]

All of the Lutron RA2 switches are wireless.  That's how they speak to each other.  Some of the other Lutron gear has a degree of wireless functionality, but that's usually tempered by not being expandable into a whole-house scenario.  
 
There's some ambiguity regarding Lutron's "ClearConnect" stuff.  Stuff like the small Pico remotes, sensors, some shades and dimmers are able to "work with" the ClearConnect tech.  This includes RA2 devices.  What isn't clear, however, is how limited the non-RA2 devices are.  Especially with regard to the newer Wink, Caseta and other product announcements.
 
The RA2 stuff can all be configured to work as one system within a house, supporting two sets of 100 devices (200 total).  Now, there's no reason you can't have more than 2 sets, other than each group would only be able to talk to it's own members.  That is, a keypad on the 1st main repeater is capable of being programmed to control a device on the other repeater.  I have this happening with some "All Off" buttons on keypads at all my entry doorways.  That way I can tap an All Off and it'll send out commands to devices on both of the repeaters.  If you had more repeaters they wouldn't be able to cross-communitcate, they'd just be co-existing in the same structure.  Not unless you had a 3rd party controller speaking to them (which is entirely possible).  But as you approach 200 devices you're more then likely into HomeWorks QS territory anyway (which is a whole other set of mysteries).
 
It would appear that the lower end stuff can't be grouped together in as large a set of devices.   How large or small a set?  I've yet to be able to determine. I get this annoying feeling the difference between the ClearConnect and RA2 is just a figment of management's imagination.  That is, the devices are being arbitrarily restricted from playing together.  Make whatever speculations you like.  The upside, however, is the tech is reliable either way.
 
Thus why I asked if you'd done a device count yet.  Sit down and count 'em up.  Include any places likely to benefit from sensors.  Also include shades, which would require considering where you'd be placing the controls for them.  Be these simple Pico remotes or on-wall keypads using buttons. You might not think about it, but if you've got automated shades there won't typically be any cords or controls on the shades themselves.  So you'll want to have some sort of obvious way for folks to operate them.  Lest someone unfamiliar with the process destroy some pretty expensive shades because they couldn't figure out how to use them!

 

[Dean Roddey]

Though, in theory though I've not tried it, the same automation system driver should work for both systems, since they have the same protocol, RA2 and HWQS I mean. They very specifically worked to get a universal protocol for the two products when they developed these latest products.
 
.

 

[wkearney99]

I'm not clear on where the ClearConnect RF protocol fits in with regard to how the RA2 dimmers speak to each other and the repeater.  That and nothing in the RA2 software shows any means to integrate these other devices.  That may not mean much as Lutron plays pretty close to the vest by limiting what the software can see to what's known to be shipping.  
 
That and one of the occupancy sensors has a specific 'RA2 or not' setup mode.  I've no idea what this does to affect how the devices integrate.  But it does add an interesting twist.

 

[Dean Roddey]

Oh, no, I meant on the automation controller side. The serial/IP protocol. is the same between the two devices, so a system that supports RA2 should support HWQS as well, at least within the range of devices that RA2 supports.

 

[pete_c]

Just a note relating to my only experience with RA2; which truly is none today.
 
Over the years enjoyed the new home automation technology shows; specifically EH Expo.
 
One day while "visiting" the Lutron / RA2 display I was mesmerized by what I saw.
 
I could see as I started to ask question the shift of whom I was talking to at the Lutron display booth.
 
I asked many questions then went to listening to a someone that appeared to eat, sleep and drink RA2 24/7 and probably never sleeping.
 
It was like I had turned on a water spigot.  I listened intently and was amazed.  Then as fast as the water spigot was turned it; it turned off; silence.  I wasn't thirsty though; I was just curious.
 
It was fun to learn about it and I was most impressed with the little bit I heard.

 

[wkearney99]

The Lutron staff I've encountered at a couple of shows was likewise pretty savvy about their automation products (both lighting and shades).  The upshot was talking with one of the engineers about the as-yet-unannounced RA2 fan controller.  Now that I've got a couple I'm glad to have waited. 

 

[pete_c]

So decided to Google "Analysis Paralysis". First hit was "The Wiki". 
 
I have seen it; but was unaware that it had a two word definition.
 

Analysis paralysis or paralysis of analysis is an anti-pattern, the state of over-analyzing (or over-thinking) a situation so that a decision or action is never taken, in effect paralyzing the outcome. A decision can be treated as over-complicated, with too many detailed options, so that a choice is never made, rather than try something and change if a major problem arises. A person might be seeking the optimal or "perfect" solution upfront, and fear making any decision which could lead to erroneous results, when on the way to a better solution.

The phrase describes a situation where the opportunity cost of decision analysis exceeds the benefits that could be gained by enacting some decision, or an informal or non-deterministic situation where the sheer quantity of analysis overwhelms the decision-making process itself, thus preventing a decision. The phrase applies to any situation where analysis may be applied to help make a decision and may be a dysfunctional element of organizational behavior. This is often phrased as paralysis by analysis, in contrast to extinct by instinct (making a fatal decision based on hasty judgment or a gut-reaction).

 
Keeping it simple (and internally itemized) helps and you know this now.
 
You have now read a lot here in this thread.  Think of it like learning to ride a bicycle or drive a car. 
 
You just do it (automate).
 
You still think about it while you are doing it (automating); but truly it's never overwhelming. 
 
Tell us here what you decide to do and why. 
 
It will be a learning experience for others doing the same as you. 
 
Make it an automation novella to keep us reading.

 

[uscpsycho]

Oh yeah, I learned right here on Cocoontech that a very good, inexpensive, long-range wifi is any of the ones by Ubiquiti (you can get on Amazon).  The software isn't the greatest for the homeowner (designed for enterprise) but the hardware is awesome.  Completely blew away my previous top of the line Netgear wifi router.

 
Are you referring to this $60 router? Reading the reviews it doesn't provide for a guest network and it doesn't allow you to set static IP's from the router. I would very much like to have a guest network but I really don't know that I could function without the ability to set static IP's. I have way too many devices on my network to be OK with them having non-static IP addresses. And not everything can have a static IP address set internally.
 
While on the subject of networks, do any of you guys have experience with Open Mesh (http://www.open-mesh.com/)? This sounds like an effective way to set up a larger wifi network, is simple to set up and is very affordable.
 

So decided to Google "Analysis Paralysis". First hit was "The Wiki". 
 
I have seen it; but was unaware that it had a two word definition.
 
 
Keeping it simple (and internally itemized) helps and you know this now.
 
You have now read a lot here in this thread.  Think of it like learning to ride a bicycle or drive a car. 
 
You just do it (automate).
 
You still think about it while you are doing it (automating); but truly it's never overwhelming. 
 
Tell us here what you decide to do and why. 
 
It will be a learning experience for others doing the same as you. 
 
Make it an automation novella to keep us reading.

 
I don't know analysis paralysis was really a thing. I thought it was just a funny term people used to describe their indecision. 
 
By the way I did some research on those tablets you were talking about and found you on multiple other forums talking about it. Not the first time I've come across you on another forum, I think I've seen you over at AVS and maybe other places too. I love your passion for technology.

 

[uscpsycho]

A few weeks ago when I was researching kitchen appliances I discovered something that, at the time, led me to think my appliance and automation decision had practically been made for me. Sub-Zero refrigerators and Wolf ovens can be automated with C4 (also with Crestron and Savant which I'm not considering). Here's the info. It was almost as if the decision for both my kitchen and automation had suddenly been made easy. Then you guys got me back to thinking again. A dangerous thing! I'm going to assume that RTI and CQC can't tackle these appliances. Or can they?
 
OK, so I'm trying to figure out how to install all the infrastructure and keep my automation options open. I know wiring for speakers & TV's is generic. And I assume wiring for touchscreens is the same regardless of type/brand of touchscreen, is that right?
 
The alarm system, surveillance, AV distribution and HVAC I'm not so sure about.
 
ALARM: Will any alarm system I install play well with CQC/RTI/Control4? Do some alarms work better with one or the other? This might be a decision that I can technically make after I decide which automation system I'll use but I want the alarm system live the day I move in.
 
SURVEILLANCE: Will any security camera/DVR setup play well with any automation system? I get the feeling yes, is that right?
 
HVAC: Very uncertain here. I know C4 has their own thermostats but RTI and obviously CQC don't. Will C4 work with other thermostats if I install a third party thermostat? Unlike surveillance I get the feeling thermostats are system specific. Is that right? I'd like something fancy on the wall like this or this.
 
AV: RTI has their own audio distribution. C4 has their own audio and hdbaset distribution. What will work with CQC? Are these components system-specific decisions or are they interchangeable?
 
I'm not really looking for specific product suggestions (although I'm open to them). I'm just trying to figure out where I have to tread carefully when selecting components so that they will work with whatever automation system I settle on. Safe to assume I should avoid anything made by C4 because it won't work with RTI or CQC?

 

[pete_c]

Sub-Zero refrigerators and Wolf ovens

 
A quickie glance indicates that these appliances are utilizing Zigbee wireless.  Zigbee wireless today is being utilized similiar to Z-Wave.  I am currently playing with a new little combination touchscreen combination switch, router, 802.11AC wireless and automation (Zigbee and Z-Wave) hub called the Almond +.  There will be more wireless Zigbee devices coming.  Not sure today that it would work with said refrigerator and wolf ovens.  Thinking soon though you will be able to purchase an autonomous Zigbee interface similiar to a Z-Wave interface.  Note this was a very quickie glance.  BTW only have experience with Sub-Zero installed in new home in the 1970's in a custom kitchen.  Never an issue with Sub-Zero up to sale of the home in the 2000's. 
 

While on the subject of networks

 
Relating to networks / networking stuff.  Plan it for the number of devices that will be on the network.  Separate out the network switch, firewall and wireless is one way to address the whole network thing.  Another way is to purchase a combo "do what" that does everything.  My personal preference is the use of wireless access points (Ubiquiti today) connected via a POE wire.  The "new" thing is 802.11AC which is called wireless gigabyte.  Recently attended a Cisco webcast relating to their use of wireless 802.11AC in the public sector.  Today my multimedia to TV or sound is using Gb wired connections.  Tablets, phones, laptops utilize wireless.  I only utilize wireless for what I cannot do wired today relating to automation.  In summary organize your network like everything else you are doing today in the rebuild of your home, planning and design wise; don't skimp on it.  Here have an autonomous firewall (PFSense), Gb managable switches and multiple access points.  Historically have used a "software" based firewall for many years.  Recently started to play with PFSense.  The PFSense firewall in place today is using multiple network interfaces both in and out.  The ingress is configured for multiple internet connections and can load balance or fail over.  Internally I there are network interfaces for separate networks which access the WAN.  You can also do separate VLAN's on the interfaces; depending on your requirements. 
 
Relating to just the Alarm piece - I utilize the HAI OPII panel (X2) which is a combination automation and security panel or too it can be considered an automation controller on steroids.  I am not sure about the integration into mentioned software / hardware automation stuff though.  The "legacy" Leviton HAI OPII panel automation panel I have installed today pieces talk X10, UBP, Z-Wave and Zigbee today.
 
Surveillance stuff - It has evolved much over the last few years.  Mostly today its migrated from SD to HD and to IP POE.  The cameras do much more than yesteryear stuff.  The CCTV recorders also do much more and in a different way than the old legacy analog CCTV stuff.  I personally utilize outdoor analog sensors in combination with the CCTV stuff; not based recorded actions on video.  Using a combination can provide some granularity.  Ask questions.  The integration of CCTV and automation is unique.  Easy to have one or the other but a bit more to the integration pieces and how folks today are integrating with automation.
 
HVAC - can be simple or a whole automation integration thing depending on what you are looking for.  One user I am aware of (HVAC) measures proficiency of every piece relating to HVAC.  I mean you can get to the providing of a very effective and efficient system today.  This gets to the pieces of the infrastructure of your home included the equilibrium of the in/out pressures in a forced air system to hot water heat to local zone / room cooling or heating.  Today its using much technology and the "thermostat" is a tiny piece of it.  Read and ask questions.  Look as before at getting the most bang for your buck relating to HVAC.   Note that the "thermostat" is just the "console" to your HVAC.   One "thing" I always heard from an old friend (into the HVAC thing for many years) was to think about heating the house with one candle and cooling it with one ice cube as a rule of thumb about what you want to do with HVAC.
 
AV - personally here have a bit of integration but not dependent integration into automation.  I like music and always have.  I like video but mostly only watch movies and recorded content; rarely anything live these days and to not watch any regular programs on television.  In recap my AV has automation pieces but is not dependent on any of the base automation in the home.  While I have satellite radio and do stream audio content I mostly enjoy my own music these days and do have my little bit of music at home and in two automobiles (replicated). Personally my preferences relate to audio MM over video MM; always have.
 
I have pleasant memories of a visit to a house in the EU, well the house was probably a few hundred years old.  I guess it was an "old man cave".  The room just had a very large fireplace in it, sparsely decorated other than being able to sit in the room.  The fireplace was large enough to walk inside of it.  I remember sitting and chatting in the room all night drinking nice wine, smoking a cigar or two and just talking with a group of friends until sunrise and only being "entertained" by the fireplace and the chat with the friends.  No music nor television (well LCD), just the fireplace in this room.

 

[Dean Roddey]

A few weeks ago when I was researching kitchen appliances I discovered something that, at the time, led me to think my appliance and automation decision had practically been made for me. Sub-Zero refrigerators and Wolf ovens can be automated with C4 (also with Crestron and Savant which I'm not considering). Here's the info. It was almost as if the decision for both my kitchen and automation had suddenly been made easy. Then you guys got me back to thinking again. A dangerous thing! I'm going to assume that RTI and CQC can't tackle these appliances. Or can they?

 
If they are Zigbee based, it would be difficult to support them at the moment.
 

ALARM: Will any alarm system I install play well with CQC/RTI/Control4? Do some alarms work better with one or the other? This might be a decision that I can technically make after I decide which automation system I'll use but I want the alarm system live the day I move in.

 
We currently support Elk, Omni, and DSC. There aren't a lot of options here wrt to ones that are designed to provide good integration into automation systems. The Elk and Omni of course provide a means to bring in other inputs as well.
 

SURVEILLANCE: Will any security camera/DVR setup play well with any automation system? I get the feeling yes, is that right?

 
Some will provide no direct control of positioning of the camera and whatnot, but will provide a means to view the output, which most systems could take advantage of. But check to be sure on a given model. Some also provide an API for control over the cameras as well. If it's serial or IP based, then most any system could support it if needed, just needs a driver.
 

HVAC: Very uncertain here. I know C4 has their own thermostats but RTI and obviously CQC don't. Will C4 work with other thermostats if I install a third party thermostat? Unlike surveillance I get the feeling thermostats are system specific. Is that right? I'd like something fancy on the wall like this or this.

 
We don't provide any hardware. If you use an Elk, or Omni or Lutron system, the thermos would be part of that. In terms of standalone thermos, we also have drivers for Nest, Aprilaire, Tekmar, Proliphics, and RCS, that I can think of right off hand.
 

AV: RTI has their own audio distribution. C4 has their own audio and hdbaset distribution. What will work with CQC? Are these components system-specific decisions or are they interchangeable?

 
There are various strategies. The most common one I already mentioned, a multi-output audio card, such as the M-Audio 1010 which provides 5 stereo pairs, driven by 5 instances of our headless audio player, which you can feed into any supported multi-zone audio system, of which we support quite a few.
 

I'm not really looking for specific product suggestions (although I'm open to them). I'm just trying to figure out where I have to tread carefully when selecting components so that they will work with whatever automation system I settle on. Safe to assume I should avoid anything made by C4 because it won't work with RTI or CQC?

 
As with most automation systems, as long it provides a control protocol over serial or socket connection, then CQC can support it, though it will require the development of a driver. That can usually be for a quite nominal fee in return for being able to throw it into the pile of drivers we ship with the product for free (all of them are free I mean.) And of course if it's IR controlled as well, but avoid that if you can.

 

[dgage]

WIFI - I was actually referring to just the Ubiquiti Wifi Access Point (http://www.ubnt.com/unifi#UnifiHardware), not a router so sorry I wasn't more specific.  I have the normal Unifi AP (http://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-Networks-UniFi-Enterprise-System/dp/B004XXMUCQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1404138289&sr=8-1&keywords=ubiquiti) and it has very long range and covers my 1/3 acre property completely.  If you have a much bigger house/property, you could go for the LR version or you could go up to a few of the new AC wifi APs.  Regarding a guest network, Ubiquiti has a guest network capability based on quick research but if you want complete separation, I'd go with separate wifi APs for guest and then use a router and setup a separate VLAN for that traffic.  Speaking of routers, like Pete_C, I run a PFSense router as well, built from a computer (http://www.amazon.com/Supermicro-SuperServer-Rackmount-Barebone-SYS-5015A-EHF-D525/dp/B004GKULFO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1404138684&sr=8-1&keywords=supermicro+525).
 
GENERIC DRIVER SUPPORT - Supporting a new device in CQC is a function of the device's interface and whether it was designed for third-party integration.  Assuming a device has integration capability, it would take Dean or another CQC driver developer to setup the framework, develop the driver, and test.  If you find a device that Creston/C4/RTI are integrating with, there is a very good chance it could be integrated with CQC.  Here is an interesting example where Dean was commissioned to create a driver that I found when researching the thermostats below (http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=11046).
 
SECURITY - The main two supported in are ELK and HAI but I believe Dean may be adding support for DSC. 
 
SURVEILLANCE - I'm not as up on this area but I know some are running things like iSpy or Blue Iris software to control the cameras.  I have seen many CQC interfaces setup to view security cameras and based on my reading, CQC is pretty flexible in enabling this area.
 
THERMOSTAT - A lot of people focus on just the thermostat interface and there are several for CQC such as Aprilaire, RCS, Proliphix, RadrioRa2, Ecobee, Nest, etc.  But like Pete_C said, I have also seen some that monitor the specific HVAC equipment. 
 
AV - Speaking specifically to CQC, AV is definitely a big area and I have read about sports bars and clubs being automated by CQC so I'd say it is very capable.  If your receiver/preamp has serial or similar control, CQC can have a driver written to interface with it.  IR controls such as Global Cache iTach can be automated to take IR/RF around the house and even send IR signals directly from the computer as if you had pressed a button.   Regarding media, you can setup some very nice music and movie interfaces in CQC to select what to play.  The only area I have issue with is in Sonos with selecting streaming music and grouping speakers to play but that has more to do with Sonos not opening that functionality to 3rd parties.  This isn't a big deal to me as I will just open up Sonos as a separate application and use it directly.  That works well because I'm used to running multiple apps on my tablets and phones so I feel this is natural too.  CQC has a very capable AV automation set and would say this is the cornerstone of CQC; my guess is if you want to do it, CQC can make it happen but I'd recommend you talk to Dean about what you want to automate in AV if you are considering CQC.

 

[tmbrown97]

For the networking and wifi, I strongly prefer decoupling wifi from the routing component - I do my residential just like commercial in that the routers are in a closet or under a desk or somewhere that fits where the primary internet connection is - then I put wireless access points where they belong - out where they can get optimal range.  The UniFi line is my go-to for most scenarios.  For the record - that open-mesh stuff is absolute garbage.  They're underpowered, inflexible, and will be slow due to extra hops.  I purchased some equipment and evaluated it for an apartment building - it would've taken 25 of them to do what I accomplished with 5 UniFi UAP-LR's and the speeds would have been much slower.  I do a lot of wifi/RF engineering which has taught me a lot about proper placement.  The router decision does matter - just use something good quality with the features you need; I like the MikroTik's and the EdgeRouter's but they're lacking in GUI - you have to do more behind the scenes; I used to run a Cisco ISR; right now I have a Netgear UTM (with none of the UTM features paid for or turned on) just out of laziness - but at clients I've done the brands listed above.  Feature-set is only part of it - I like quality components and a processor that can keep up - you don't want your router incapable of keeping up as ethernet speeds start tipping the 100mbps range.
 
For thermostats, you unfortunately won't find big fancy touchscreens in the automation-friendly world.  There are specific ones that have drivers for certain systems, but they're not too universal.  For a tried and proven automation-friendly thermostat, you're looking at RCS, AprilAire or HAI OmniStat.  All great but not too fancy.  That said, my newfound favorite is the Lutron RadioRa2 totally decoupled thermostat solution - the SeeTemp.  The temperature sensor can be placed in an ideal location; the actual user interface is a simple decora style, and it is made to integrate.  That said, they do have a TouchPro Wireless - but personally I love the concept of eliminating that big ugly thing on the wall and getting something that blends so much better; and besides if there's a central touchscreen or two, that's easy to integrate there.  I can't wait to finally get my touchscreen up so that from either the bedroom or the main area downstairs I can adjust all the zones and see their status at a glance - because even with a zoned system, what's going on in one zone does affect the others.  My RCS communicating zone controller is better than most zoned options, but I want even more.
 
Security is another where there are 2-4 big players - anyone can integrate with HAI or Elk; some DSC, some GE.  They can be overkill when using a 3rd party automation controller, but they're built and designed around automation and integration at their core.
 
For cameras, it's not always that easy - there are a few protocols like mpeg4, mjpeg, h.264, MxPeg - so there's no guarantee that they'll be compatible off the bat - but most of the better cameras do offer dual streams so you can 1) record the better stream for playback, and 2) set up a stream that's ideal for real-time display around the house.
 
For AV there are a handful of players that once again are a bit universal - I just don't have their names in front of me right now - but audio it's russound and nuvo and a lot of players are looking to figure out how to handle sonos; for video there's of course crestron, snapav, avocation, and a handful of others - I'd look for ones that are fairly universal.
 
Many of these manufacturers like Control4 and Crestron and others want to be your everything, but to survive in the market, they also have to support the other industry standards - and IMO keeping more with the industry standards ensures that 1) they'll be supported for a long time and 2) should any one company go belly up, you're not hosed on your entire install.  This is a market that's going absolutely crazy with all sorts of small startups coming up with new products and goliaths throwing their money around to get into the arena - the players WILL change.  Think of cell phones when Motorola then Qualcomm then Blackberry were the giants - and all it took was Apple to come stir things up and cause a huge movement; then Google coming in and offering something similar yet vastly different splitting the market; Home Automation will likely see similar activity as it gets easier to install for the laymen and more prevalent in our ever increasing all connected world.

 

[dgage]

Great post and info Work2Play.  Thanks!
 
+1 on the RadioRa2 SeeTemp.  I like it much better than the big wall wart thermostat it replaced.  And as an added bonus I get to place the temperature sensor in a spot that actually makes sense.