paralysis by analysis

[Dean Roddey]

The thing about C4 is that, once you go that way, you are locked into that scenario. If you ever wanted to change the automation system, the C4 hardware won't work with anything else so you'll have to replace it. With something like Radio RA2, that's an open system and though you will have to combine it with an automation system, it's something that would work with most of them, so you have the choice of what to use. And it's top-notch, reliable stuff.
 
I'd also argue that CQC isn't as hard to learn as is being made out. What's really hard has little to do with CQC, it's creating really aesthetically pleasing touch screens that work well. That's hard in any system that doesn't have a canned interface. And, if it has a canned interface, it's going to be pretty limiting.
 
But our upcoming 4.5 version has a very nice auto-generation system that makes it a lot easier to set up the core functionality, which you can then tweak/expand over time as you learn more about it.

 

[uscpsycho]

I've heard plenty of negative things about Control4's light switches being unreliable.  I think most folks will agree, Lutron's are rock-solid reliable.  I've had Control4 folks suggest using RA2 lighting instead.  Most systems can control RA2, so it's not an interoperability situation.  You'd need, of course, an integrator that's already authorized for both Control4 and Lutron.  
 
I still fall back on the foundation of at least one clearly positioned traditional switch for the room's "main lighting".  I'd rather have a 2-gang box with a paddle and a keypad rather than a keypad alone.  Also note, as things get more sophisticated you chew through keypad buttons pretty quick.  I've a rec room with a four gang box with 3 dimmers and a 6-button keypad and, honestly, it could use another keypad.  But the usability of that would suck.  
 
There's the balance between keypads as toggles for lights vs scenes.  And it's hard to gauge just how much of which you're going to end up needing for a brand new space.  Sure, it seems clever to have 'scenes' for stuff but it's a lot harder to plan those out than you might expect.  At least not for daily use rooms.  For a dining room or a theater it's a lot easier to plan.  But for a space that sees a lot of different activities like a family room/kitchen it's not as simple.
 
Here's a point worth considering, a lot of integrators don't live in the kind of houses they're consulting to install.  Think about that.  No amount of vendor training is going to give you enough experience to grasp how to automate someone else's lifestyle.  Do you want to be paying $$$/hour to have them learn how you live?  So make sure your integrator has references from current customers who live in a house like yours and live in it in similar fashion.  Don't just accept the bullshit of having automated some sports player or other celebrity's house.  Because jobs like that are more of a gravy train for the integrator than anything resembling a real-world comparison to your own life.
 
We may well use a Control4 setup for our theater when we do it this Fall.  Their on-screen and remote integration has a very high WAF score.  Sure, it ain't cheap, but if the wife's happy and doesn't have to nag me to set things up then it's money well-spent.
 
As for TVs and distributed sources... sigh... that's perhaps fodder for a whole other thread.  Initially you think you want to be clever and do something like have only X number of sources to be distributed and controlled from X+ number of TVs.  Then you realize the WAF for such a setup just completely SUCKS.  Who's using which sources, on what TVs, for how long, etc...  Ugh, it's a mess. 
 
Let's step back and identify which of the TVs would truly benefit from having their own sources.  Bite the bullet on what it takes to make that happen (space for the gear, remote repeaters, whatever) and the monthly subscriptions.  Then look at how the others would get used.  We've been reasonably pleased using a 4-tuner Tivo as the host for a Tivo Mini client on a TV.  The Mini needs only a network connection, neatly eliminating a lot of hassles trying to matrix and control the source.  Guests get a predictable, factory remote (not a customized one), ability to watch live TV, a guide they can surf and ability to stream from various sources.  I get headache reduction. Win-win.  So focus on what those other TVs actually "need" to be able to do.

 
I love you man.
 
This has made me rethink my entire video distribution strategy. I don't have to worry about WAF today but maybe (hopefully?) in the future. And my guests. Oh my poor guests... They will be lost. Matrixed video distribution is definitely not intuitive.
 
It sounds like you are suggesting biting the bullet and using Genie to get my DirecTV throughout the house. I was trying to avoid the monthly fees of a Genie for every TV but perhaps in the long run that is best.
 
I'm glad I asked about the Control4 lighting. I'm surprised to hear it is as flaky as you say. Have others had this same experience with C4's current equipment lineup?
 
If I take video distribution and lighting out of the equation I feel like I'm back to the drawing board. I don't think I have ever agonized this much over a purchase in my life. Not even buying a car or a house. With those expensive commitments you can see exactly what you are getting before you sign on the dotted line. But with these home automation systems it's hard to really know how the end product will work or mesh with your lifestyle once it is installed. You can read endless reviews but there is absolutely no agreement; for every person that swears by Crestron there is a cheerleader for RTI, C4 and even DIY. And there are bashers of every platform as well.
 
And I've grown to have a healthy distrust of integrators. Their only goal is to maximize their profits regardless of what might be best for me. I'd love a truly independent and knowledgable consultant who doesn't have any skin in the game to design a system for me that will be installed by someone else. But I don't think such a person exists, anyone this knowledgeable is going to have skin in the game.
 
Paralysis by analysis indeed...

 

[wkearney99]

Lutron's has always been reliable.  That's more than enough for me.  I've put up with way too many half-assed technologies over the years to ever waste time & money on any lighting controls that aren't already proven.  You just can't build any spousal support for the gizmos if the lights don't eff'in work...  TRUST ME on this.
 
My advice on lighting is wire it like traditional but with adjustments to allow for automation.  That way you've got a good fallback position should the automation go horribly wrong.  Resale isn't always kind to houses with automation.
 
I despise DirecTV, so I can't help ya there.  At least with Tivo units I can pony up the lifetime fees upfront and be done with the expense.  I'm still on the hook for cablecard fees from Verizon.  But that can drop quite a bit as you only need one per recording device.   The latest 6 tuner Roamio DVR can handle multiple guest Tivo Mini clients. 
 
I likewise agonized.  I've still not installed the ceiling speakers and whole house setup.  Because I'm finding that all of the places I thought might need the speakers, really don't.  There's wires up there for them but I may just not install the speakers.  Although, this is a better position to be in than not having wires and needing them.  
 
I know of no one that's ever honestly 'pleased' with their Crestron setup.  I know of at least a dozen folks that have them and not one is willing to state it was worth the expense (on-going).  I do know of some folks with C4 theaters and they do seem satisfied with it.  I'm not thrilled with their non-DIY approach, but at least they're not assholes about it like Crestron.

 

[dgage]

I'm with wkearney, my Lutron RadioRa2 has been nothing but 100% reliable.
 
I don't have as many data points but when I did my research related to Control4, I came across more than a few people who were unhappy and wish they hadn't gone with Control4...Crestron too.  I came to the conclusion there was no way I was going to be helpless at controlling my own home with every little change requiring a call to someone for several hundred dollars a pop.  Then again, I love to tweak.
 
Another option is something like CQC that does have people that deploy it professionally.  You could get someone to set up the interfaces for you initially and then give you training so you can tweak on your own.  That way you get the best of both worlds, a professionally deployed system while having the option to tweak later.  That would definitely reduce the learning curve and time to implement and would still be a hell of a lot cheaper than Control4, especially ongoing.  I have CQC and it is good but will take some effort to get going although I haven't built interfaces yet...will be doing that with the newest version, 4.5.

 

[dgage]

Forgot to address matrixed video.  I know this is a desired premium solution but I wonder if it is still as needed...almost like wired whole house audio.
 
I don't know about your house but in my house, people want to watch different things and we like plenty of choices with plenty of channels.  So put something like a main unit with distributed video clients. I have a Tivo Roamio Pro and Tivo Minis on a couple TVs and it is absolutely great.  I can even connect to Netflix from within Tivo.  Throw your movies on a centrally available NAS and you could have your entire movie collection available anywhere.  And people can choose what they want to watch on any TV with a pretty simple system made even simpler by a remote like the Logitech Harmony 650 or 700 ("Watch TV", "Watch Movie").
 
Just a thought from the Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS) camp.

 

[Dean Roddey]

Here is a little demo video. I go from a freshly installed system to a pretty nice setup in about 11 minutes. The real thing would take a little longer since I'm using mostly simulator drivers for this video. The real drivers (Elk, Omni, Lutron, etc...) would require you to do some configuration, mainly to tell it what thermos, areas, zones, lights, etc... you want the driver to use. But, that's not rocket science or anything.
 
Once the drivers are loaded, it sets up 'room configuration' where you define what resources (available from the drivers loaded) you want to make available, then you configure a set of rooms and what resources should available to each room and the screen resolutions you want to support. Then we run the generation tool to spit out the user interfaces in the configured resolutions.
 
http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/PostImages/4_5Previews/Auto-GenDemo.wmv
 
For whatever reason Camtasia forces my desktop back to the basic theme, which is why it looks like that. I have to log out and back in to get the Win7 theme back.
 
Anyhoo, you can see that it can generate a lot of functionality for you fairly easily. Most of this can be used as is. In some cases you might want some user logic to be run at certain places, and those are provided for, though it's not demonstrated in this video since you couldn't see any external hardware anyway. But you can for each room define an action to run upon entry to the music or movie sections, upon selection of a new room to view, and to be associated with power on/off buttons in the music and movie sections. These actions can be used to setup hardware, as required.
 
As soon as 4.5 goes out, we will go right back to upgrading more drivers to our V2 architecture to support the auto-gen system, and to adding more features to the auto-gen, so that it can do more for you. We just had so many new capabilities already that we had to stop here and get a release out.

 

[uscpsycho]

The thing about C4 is that, once you go that way, you are locked into that scenario. If you ever wanted to change the automation system, the C4 hardware won't work with anything else so you'll have to replace it. With something like Radio RA2, that's an open system and though you will have to combine it with an automation system, it's something that would work with most of them, so you have the choice of what to use. And it's top-notch, reliable stuff.
 
I'd also argue that CQC isn't as hard to learn as is being made out. What's really hard has little to do with CQC, it's creating really aesthetically pleasing touch screens that work well. That's hard in any system that doesn't have a canned interface. And, if it has a canned interface, it's going to be pretty limiting.
 
But our upcoming 4.5 version has a very nice auto-generation system that makes it a lot easier to set up the core functionality, which you can then tweak/expand over time as you learn more about it.

 
I don't understand how C4 is different from any other system in this respect. Can't you say the same about RTI, Crestron, AMX, etc? If you change the automation system you have to change everything else. Or is the point you're making that I should use Lutron so at least *that* part of the system won't have to change along with everything else?
 

I'm with wkearney, my Lutron RadioRa2 has been nothing but 100% reliable.
 
I don't have as many data points but when I did my research related to Control4, I came across more than a few people who were unhappy and wish they hadn't gone with Control4...Crestron too.  I came to the conclusion there was no way I was going to be helpless at controlling my own home with every little change requiring a call to someone for several hundred dollars a pop.  Then again, I love to tweak.
 
Another option is something like CQC that does have people that deploy it professionally.  You could get someone to set up the interfaces for you initially and then give you training so you can tweak on your own.  That way you get the best of both worlds, a professionally deployed system while having the option to tweak later.  That would definitely reduce the learning curve and time to implement and would still be a hell of a lot cheaper than Control4, especially ongoing.  I have CQC and it is good but will take some effort to get going although I haven't built interfaces yet...will be doing that with the newest version, 4.5.

 
I agree about not wanting to be helpless in controlling my own system. I'm a techie and a tweaker. But I also know that there is a point where sometimes it's better to hire a professional than try to become a professional. Both in terms of the investment of time and the quality of the final product. Also, the DIY options are really the worst and least reliable options -- we're talking z-wave and a bunch of small startups. What is the DIY option that can be as reliable as the professional systems like Crestron and C4?
 
At one point I had considered using CQC but I didn't want to build it from scratch and their website had very few consultants listed (just three IIRC), and none in my area. I'm in Los Angeles, anyone out there fancy themselves a CQC expert and want to set me up? It's a fairly big job. Or is there someone really good that Dean can refer me to? There was one integrator I talked to who had explored CQC systems but decided against deploying it because even though CQC was good he thought it was run by "one guy in a basement" and if he disappeared he'd have a lot of clients left with obsolete systems. That may/may not be a fair characterization, but that was his feeling.
 

Forgot to address matrixed video.  I know this is a desired premium solution but I wonder if it is still as needed...almost like wired whole house audio.
 
I don't know about your house but in my house, people want to watch different things and we like plenty of choices with plenty of channels.  So put something like a main unit with distributed video clients. I have a Tivo Roamio Pro and Tivo Minis on a couple TVs and it is absolutely great.  I can even connect to Netflix from within Tivo.  Throw your movies on a centrally available NAS and you could have your entire movie collection available anywhere.  And people can choose what they want to watch on any TV with a pretty simple system made even simpler by a remote like the Logitech Harmony 650 or 700 ("Watch TV", "Watch Movie").
 
Just a thought from the Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS) camp.

 
I'm curious about your comment implying the obsolescence of wired whole house audio. What are the wireless options? Don't they all involve bulky in-room speakers that have to be plugged into an outlet? Is there a custom looking in-wall/ceiling option that is wireless? I feel like no matter how much time I spend researching there is still so much more I don't know.  
 
I am on the verge of abandoning the matrixed video and going this route. I love DirecTV but not crazy about paying a monthly fee for every client. The Roamio option sounds like it would save me some money but is not possible with DirecTV and I have to stay with DirecTV for reasons unrelated to home automation.
 
When everything is done I'm going to have 13-14 TV's so I need a solution that can handle that. Even the 8x8 hdbaset I planned to use wasn't going to be perfect but I'm not sure anything will be, a 16x16 matrix is way too expensive. It sounds like I can pull this off with DirecTV but I'm still investigating.
 

Here is a little demo video. I go from a freshly installed system to a pretty nice setup in about 11 minutes. The real thing would take a little longer since I'm using mostly simulator drivers for this video. The real drivers (Elk, Omni, Lutron, etc...) would require you to do some configuration, mainly to tell it what thermos, areas, zones, lights, etc... you want the driver to use. But, that's not rocket science or anything.
 
Once the drivers are loaded, it sets up 'room configuration' where you define what resources (available from the drivers loaded) you want to make available, then you configure a set of rooms and what resources should available to each room and the screen resolutions you want to support. Then we run the generation tool to spit out the user interfaces in the configured resolutions.
 
http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/PostImages/4_5Previews/Auto-GenDemo.wmv
 
For whatever reason Camtasia forces my desktop back to the basic theme, which is why it looks like that. I have to log out and back in to get the Win7 theme back.
 
Anyhoo, you can see that it can generate a lot of functionality for you fairly easily. Most of this can be used as is. In some cases you might want some user logic to be run at certain places, and those are provided for, though it's not demonstrated in this video since you couldn't see any external hardware anyway. But you can for each room define an action to run upon entry to the music or movie sections, upon selection of a new room to view, and to be associated with power on/off buttons in the music and movie sections. These actions can be used to setup hardware, as required.
 
As soon as 4.5 goes out, we will go right back to upgrading more drivers to our V2 architecture to support the auto-gen system, and to adding more features to the auto-gen, so that it can do more for you. We just had so many new capabilities already that we had to stop here and get a release out.

 
This video is nice because it lets people see under the hood but it doesn't come across as being super simple to set up. I get the gist of how to add devices but I want to control lights, hvac, alarm, surveillance, audio, pool, irrigation, etc. There are a lot of if-then scenarios. I haven't the foggiest idea how complicated that is from this video. Maybe the best thing is to have someone set me up and then I can learn to tweak things. Got anyone in L.A.?
 
When is 4.5 coming out?

 

[uscpsycho]

A few posts back I mentioned I was considering RTI or C4 for my automation. There's been quite a bit of trashing of C4 (and Crestron) but not much feedback about RTI. What are your thoughts on RTI vs C4 or even CQC?
 
I am also replacing all of my kitchen appliances. Subzero refrigerators and Wolf ovens can be integrated with Crestron, C4 and Savant. This discovery pushed me towards buying Subzero/Wolf/C4. I wonder if there is a way to make these appliances work with RTI or CQC?
 
On the DIY side, I wonder if Nest being backed by Google and the recent announcement that they are allowing third party integration will ever lead to something as robust as the high end systems. I know, that's a subject for an entirely different thread, just thinking out loud...

 

[Dean Roddey]

The Lutron system isn't an automation system, it's something controlled by the automation system. And it's control interface is not a proprietary interface. C4's gear is proprietary, you can't control it from anything but C4 gear basically. That insures that other companies cannot benefit from their gear, and it makes it difficult for you to move elsewhere once you've made the commitment to their system. I'm not knocking them for that, it's fairly sound business strategy. But it is what it is, and it's something to consider.
 
Lutron's control interface is openly available, so you can integrate it into any automation system that has a driver for it. That could be C4 (assuming they have a driver) or our CQC product or whatever else supports it. Lutron, for now anyway (hint, hint Lutron, call us), doesn't sell an automation system. They sell a lighting system, and it's to their benefit to make it widely available. Even if they did start selling an automation system, they'd still take the same approach I'm sure because they make a lot of money from their lighting systems being integrated with various systems, or used standalone.
 
Same with RTI's remotes. They just send out text strings that you configure, so any control system that can be trained to react to such text strings (as ours can) can be used with RTI to trigger things to happen.
 
And so on.
 
 
One nice thing about software based systems is that the person who does the CQC setup doesn't necessarily have to be local. You can split the hardware installation/setup out from the configuration of the software, which can be done remotely. You may want to have them come out at the very end if there's anything that can't be figured out remotely, but generally that's not the case. Plenty of systems get done that way. It costs a lot less than being on site but you do have to do some leg work for the person doing the setup, to help him test things out a bit locally and tell him what is going on if you feel it's not doing what it should be. E-mail me at support at our charmedquark.com domain and I can perhaps set you up with some folks to work with.
 
As to us being one guy in a basement, we've been around for like 13 years now. In that time, a number of considerably larger companies have gone down the tubes. And of course the only reason we'd go down the tubes is because people don't buy the product because they worry that we might go down the tubes. It's a tough cycle to get out of.
 
Any device can be integrated, as long as the companies will expose the control protocol. It just requires a driver to provide the integration.
 
 
As to 18 TVs, we have a guy who puts in sports bar systems that have 50 to 80 TVs, a bunch of set top boxes, a big matrix to handle the switching, provides scheduling of what plays on what TVs at what times, plus manual override, plays scheduled music throughout the bar and provides digital signage.
 
A product likes ours can do almost anything, if you are willing to spend the bucks to do it. No generalized system is going to do those sorts of things out of the box. Once you get into that realm it does require customization. The video I showed you wasn't intended to teach you much, but to give you a basic idea of what is required to set up a basic system, and it's not a lot. Once you go beyond that and want to get into fairly heavy customization, then you either have to hire someone or learn how it works and apply those concepts to achieve what you want.

 

[pete_c]

Yup; here the discussion has gone to apples versus oranges versus grapes.
 
Much too relates to your knowledge base of all of the pieces involved and how much you want to do or get involved.
 
There is "the automated switch" and the electrical involved with said endeavor.  Then there is the software piece of the automated switch and the piece that connects the two.  
 
Do you want to get involved in the electric or just hire an electrician?
 
Do you want to program the switch or just look at the configuration for it once its already been configured?
 
Do you just want to learn to navigate your automation however its pre-configured?
 
You will get the most flexibility from software that you can add hardware and plugins pieces to add or subtract automation.
 
The automation hub is just a conduit to connect to multiple devices; a "mini me" sort of the firmware combo security panels spoken of here in the forum.
 
The level of how much you want to do relating to your endeavor is really up to you and what you feel comfortable with doing.
 
Control 4 or Crestron will provide to you everything and will allow some adjustments accordingly; but you will also pay for it by the month.  It might be more convenient this way for you.  Just request what you want and they will take care of it for you.

 

[wkearney99]

Control 4 or Crestron will provide to you everything and will allow some adjustments accordingly; but you will also pay for it by the month.  It might be more convenient this way for you.  Just request what you want and they will take care of it for you.

 
Just be sure to specify which limb it is you're sacrificing for that 'care'.
 
There's a huge gulf, both price and technology-wise, between simple automation of lighting and complete automation.  But even with 'complete automation' it still often falls short of people's expectations.  Mainly because the expectations aren't based on any reality they've ever seen, just on a ton of assumptions and Hollywood special effects.  The problem with this 'complete automation' fantasy is it'll drive your spouse batshit insane both in trying to use it and being gobsmacked at the obscene amount of money it takes to STILL NOT READ HER MIND.
 
Thus falling back to some simpler lighting automation is a fine way to stay married...  and out of the poor house.

 

[uscpsycho]

Yup; here the discussion has gone to apples versus oranges versus grapes.
 
Much too relates to your knowledge base of all of the pieces involved and how much you want to do or get involved.
 
There is "the automated switch" and the electrical involved with said endeavor.  Then there is the software piece of the automated switch and the piece that connects the two.  
 
Do you want to get involved in the electric or just hire an electrician?
 
Do you want to program the switch or just look at the configuration for it once its already been configured?
 
Do you just want to learn to navigate your automation however its pre-configured?
 
You will get the most flexibility from software that you can add hardware and plugins pieces to add or subtract automation.
 
The automation hub is just a conduit to connect to multiple devices; a "mini me" sort of the firmware combo security panels spoken of here in the forum.
 
The level of how much you want to do relating to your endeavor is really up to you and what you feel comfortable with doing.
 
Control 4 or Crestron will provide to you everything and will allow some adjustments accordingly; but you will also pay for it by the month.  It might be more convenient this way for you.  Just request what you want and they will take care of it for you.

 
It's not that simple. How many times in this thread have people said C4 and Crestron have reliability issues. I was ready to go forward with C4 until I became convinced this could be a monumental waste of money. So even if I just want to learn to navigate the system, I still want the system to work reliably. THAT is the most important thing.
 
As far as having the knowledge, this is an ongoing challenge. I came into this knowing nothing about home automation. My head hurts trying to make sense of everything: Control4, RTI, Savant, Crestron, HAI, Leviton, Lutron, Homeseer, Insteon, UPB, CQC, Z-wave and the list goes on and on and on. Some of this stuff is not suitable for what I want to do but when you're starting at ground zero you have to wade through all of it. For someone who is tech savvy it's been very frustrating because I feel like the more I research the less I know. That's why the name of this thread is Paralysis by Analysis.
 
Honestly, CQC sounds like a good option because I am very technical and have written code in multiple languages (I have a masters degree in Computer Science from a top university) but I'm in the middle of a whole home remodel and I need this done right the first time. I can't experiment and get it wrong. I also have a million other things to do while this is happening so I don't have the time to become proficient in CQC. I like the DIY option because I'm a tinkerer; in fact at when all this started I thought I would use z-wave because of how much control I would have but I quickly gave up on that idea because of how unreliable & limited z-wave is.
 
I suppose what I could do is have all the equipment installed (this is something I definitely CAN'T do myself) then figure out the CQC automation of it later when I have time. Or if I give up on CQC I can have RTI put in by a professional. But if things aren't working right I can see the person who installed the equipment blaming whoever programmed the automation, and vice versa. 
 
 

Just be sure to specify which limb it is you're sacrificing for that 'care'.
 
There's a huge gulf, both price and technology-wise, between simple automation of lighting and complete automation.  But even with 'complete automation' it still often falls short of people's expectations.  Mainly because the expectations aren't based on any reality they've ever seen, just on a ton of assumptions and Hollywood special effects.  The problem with this 'complete automation' fantasy is it'll drive your spouse batshit insane both in trying to use it and being gobsmacked at the obscene amount of money it takes to STILL NOT READ HER MIND.
 
Thus falling back to some simpler lighting automation is a fine way to stay married...  and out of the poor house.

 
I love your posts. You give some of the most practical insights on here.

 

[dgage]

I've been running CQC for over a year with my Lutron RadioRa2 but haven't set up any interfaces yet.  I just use it for basic time-based automation and motion-based responses.
 
Some of the things I have setup in CQC that didn't take too long.
1. Vacation randomization of lights.  Looks like we are still home.  Needed a little help getting the right commands but Dean and the other CQC users were very supportive and informative.
2. When we come into the garage after sunset, the motion sensor turns on the garage lights and the kitchen lights (next to garage).
3. A few other motion sensor responses like #2.
4. Don't want the kitchen pendants on with the kitchen recessed lights.  So CQC checks to see if both are on and turns off the ones that were already on.
5. Normal RadioRa2 Pico remotes have a middle button that is meant to be a preset dimming function such as 50%.  I wanted the main buttons to control the master bedroom light but wanted to use the middle button for the master bathroom light instead of a dimming setting on the main buttons.  Since RadioRa2 wouldn't do what I wanted it to, I turned to CQC and was able to get it to do exactly what I wanted.  There is a second or so delay but it works and we have one of the cheap remotes next to each side of the bed and it has been great. 
 
These are just some of the simple things I've turned on in CQC to automate my house a little bit at a time.  I will soon add additional drivers and interfaces but I haven't felt the need as automation to me has been a little bit at a time, which follows wkearney's recommendation to live in the house for a while to figure out what you want to automate.
 
So there is no need to necessarily add everything all at once.  Even if you were to hire a professional, you would need to spend a lot of brain power getting the picture of what home automation means to you out to the professional to then automate.  It is one more thing that would require your attention and add some stress and frustration.  I have seen way too many houses not built very well.  I would strongly suggest just getting your house ready for security, automation, wiring, etc. but focus most of your attentions on ensuring your house is built well.  Because having the coolest automation isn't going to be very good if the house itself has issues.

 

[uscpsycho]

Thank you dgage. This is really good advice.
 
To clarify, the house isn't being built from scratch. It's already built (so I don't have to worry about quality of construction) but every single room is being remodeled. I have the green light from my contractor to tear up the walls and ceilings as much as I need to. So this is the time to install everything. While I don't have to program the automation right out of the gate I do need to make sure the right gear is installed because going back in later to replace things or run wire will be a lot more expensive and a lot messier. So at the very least I have to decide right now which components go in -- if I install C4 for lighting I can't go back later and switch to Lutron. Right now the only thing I'm really trying to figure out is what I should install.
 
After all the research I feel like maybe I should install as much interoperable gear as possible then decide on automation later.
 
Things I know I can install now that will work with any automation (C4, RTI, CQC, etc.):
Lutron for lights
HAI for alarm
Video surveillance/DVR
Irrigation control
Pool control
 
Am I mistaken that these things will function with any automation system I decide to go with?
 
Things I'm not sure if I can install now: C4 and RTI have their own units for audio distribution, and C4 has their own hdbaset hdmi matrix switch. Do these components have to be brand specific or can I mix/use other brands? I know C4 has their own thermostats too, do I have to use them or will C4 work with other brands?
 
After everything is installed I can try my hand at CQC/Elve/Homeseer and if I give up on the DIY dream I can always have RTI or C4 put in. Or have someone program the CQC for me. I know C4 and RTI have their own keypads and remotes but there is nothing like that for the DIY systems. Is everything manipulated by cellphone/tablet?
 
I think I'm also going to take the advice of prewiring for speakers everywhere I think I want them, but not install them until I'm sure I need them.
 
Does this sound like a more sane approach to the project? I feel like this plan will give me everything on my wish list without having to stress out over the decision about automation.

 

[dgage]

I think that sounds like a great plan.  Do searches on Cocoontech as there have been many threads on wiring.
 
Essentially, you want CAT6 network wire all over the place.  Put the plan for CAT6 together and then triple the number of drops.   Serious, so many things can run on network now that it is what I'd do.  RG6 for cable would be good too but isn't used near as much anymore.
 
For security, run individual wires for every exterior door and window.  I'd also run wires for sensors on the major interior doors, not for security but for later automation (kid opened the door in the middle of the night so turn on the hall light on low and turn on the bathroom light).  Interior door sensors would be cheaper, maybe quicker, and more reliable than motion sensors.  Run individual wires for glass breakage, motion sensors, security speakers/piezos, etc.  Run CAT6 to keypad locations along with wires for speakers at the keypad.  Put a keypad in the closet with the security system.
 
For speakers, run wires to each ceiling location.  Also run CAT6 for keypads although you may or may not use them.  If you plan to put up a projector, run a CAT6 cable that you might use to run an HDMI signal over.  Also make sure to run a power wire where you might put a projector as well as a mounting plate.
 
Also, for TV locations, so many people are putting TVs up on the wall so you want HDMI/CAT6 at that level as well as power.  However, since you really aren't sure where you might put a TV and you won't want plates way up high, just make sure you have plenty of wire in the bottom of the wall that you can pull up higher.  Also, so often power is run a few feet from each corner but you may want power in the center of a wall for TV.  If you have a power plug in the same stud at the bottom of the wall where you want a TV, it will be easy later on to pull wire up the same stud to put power behind the TV.  Also, make sure to keep low voltage (network,speaker) wire a foot away from power wires if you can and if you have to cross, do so at a 90 degree angle.
 
By the way, for any of the wiring such as speakers that you aren't sure where the final location will be, criss-cross the wiring between studs several feet around the location you might select and lightly staple the wire.  This way you can cut the hole where you need, reach the wire, and have plenty of wire length.
 
OK.  That's some quick info.  I'm a novice compared to some of the experts on this board so I'm sure someone will come along with more and better info to think about.
 
And based on what you have mentioned of yourself, I don't think you'll be happy with something like Control4.  You're way too technical to let someone else control your home.  But I'm quite technical too and don't always want to mess with the technology.  But if I had to choose with having some control vs none, there is no way I would choose none when I am perfectly capable to do some of the tweaking.  Of course, only you can make that decision but I like your plan to worry about that later.