Smoking Expansion Power

[TechnoFool]

Somehow I foolishly committed to doing the low voltage wiring for our new house construction, and now I realize that the more I learn, the less I know. So please help me learn more or know even less.
 
The questions I have here are for the security system. It's a fairly large project, and I'm leaning towards the Vista 21ip system with 8 glass breaks, 16 windows, 9 doors, 8 motions, 4 floods, 2-4 panels, mobile communicator and a siren. I think I've researched enough of this to be dangerous but have a few question for you kind experts.
 
1. What type of smoke/CO detectors do I need in order to hook them up to the system? Any favorite models? I think the electrician will actually wire these up for me, so what does he need to know to make the proper security connection?
 
2. While I've toyed with the idea of combining several sensors in series, I think I may just put each one on its own zone to help with future debugging. How much space do the expansion modules take, and do I need to get a bigger can to house all of this?
 
3. How do I determine power needs? Will I have an issue with a standard transformer? Do I need to get a bigger battery?
 
Thanks in advance!
 
Andreas

 

[RAL]

Welcome to Cocoontech, technofool!
 
1.  One decision on smoke detectors is whether you want to use 2-wire or 4-wire smoke detectors.  If you choose 2-wire smokes, then you will need to choose a brand/model that is compatible with the 21ip. There is a list of compatible models in the installation manual.
 
If you choose 4-wire smoke detectors, then you can use any brand.  System Sensor i3 and i4 Series are good models.
 
Smoke detectors should always be wired in a daisy chain fashion no matter which type you use.  Don't home run the wiring for these.  Also make sure you use 18 gauge fire rated wire or better.
 
One other thing to look into is whether your local building codes will allow you to have only alarm-system-connected smoke detectors, or whether you might also be required to have independent 120VAC smoke alarms that do not depend on the alarm system being operational.
 
2. Putting sensors (other than smoke detectors) on their own zones is a nice way to do things, as it gives you better granularity and makes it easier to determine which one might be causing a problem.  The zone input expansion modules aren't too large (6-1/2" x 4-1/4" x 1-1/4"), but if you have more than a couple, you may need an additional enclosure to hold them.  The 4219 modules actually come with their own plastic enclosure, which you could mount along side the can that holds the 21ip, but my preference would be to place them in their own can which you can lock up to prevent any one from disturbing things.
 
Looking at the items you listed that you want to have sensors on, I count 45 zones, plus one additional zone for the smokes, and another for CO if you want CO protection, too.  You're awfully close to the 48 zone limit of the 21ip.
 
One compromise would be to place all the windows in a single room on one zone, doors, motion and glass break detectors on their own individual zones. If you make a home run for everything, including each window, you can decide how to configure it back at the panel when you connect things up.
 
3. The 21ip can power up to 600 mA of devices attached to the Aux power.  The standard transformer will support this.  It's always a good idea to leave yourself some headroom and not draw more than 80% of the rated capacity, so say 480 to 500 mA in this case.
 
The 4219s draw 30 mA each.  Each keypad, depending on the model, can draw up to 190 mA (and 210 mA for RF models).  So you need to add those to the total.  Plus motion detectors, smoke detectors and and cellular communicator. 
 
You don't need to add the siren current into this. That is factored into the base power supply capability.
 
You mentioned "floods."  Do you mean flood/water detectors?  If so, they may also need a power source, and need to added into the total current draw.
 
My guess is you are going to need an auxiliary power supply (with its own battery).  Some suggestions would be Altronix AL400ULPD8 or AL600ULPD8  (or PD4's).  You can often find them on eBay for a reasonable price.
 
Battery size for the 21ip and the aux power will depend on how long you want your system to run during a power failure.  4 hours is usually the minimum that is considered acceptable.  24 hours is desirable. There is a chart in the installation manual that will help you choose an appropriately sized battery.
 
Make sure that the aux power battery will last longer then the 21ip's battery.  If the items powered by the aux supply lose battery power first, that will cause problems for the main panel which will still be running. 

 

[TechnoFool]

Wow, this is great advice. Thanks!
 
If you don't mind, I want to clarify just a few things.
 
1. Do smoke detectors exist that take their power from 120VAC but still provide a communication loop to the alarm panel? 
 
2. Are the 4219 units sufficient for my installation? I don't quite understand what the 4229 version offers.
 
3. Yes, I meant flood sensors and will add those to the power total. Your explanation on the power draw was quite helpful, by the way. 
 
4. For now I want to make sure that I pre-wire everything appropriately and can then figure out how to hook it up on the back end. Just so I understand, I'll homerun all the sensors to the security cabinet which will have the main controller, cell communicator (and possibly a zone expander or two) in one can and the other zone expanders in a second can. The aux power charger and battery goes in a third can? Or maybe I'll just get a larger can... Then bring in a network cable for IP communication. Finally, do I still use the typical transformer, or does the aux power now need something else (in addition or in lieu)?

 

[RAL]

1. There are 120VAC smoke alarms that have outputs that have an output to control things such as ventilation systems, etc.  But these are not recommended for connection to a fire alarm control panel.  Some people have done it anyway, but you risk problems with your AHJ and insurance company if something goes wrong, since you are not using them in an approved manner.
 
Just to help you keep things straight with terminology... Smoke Detectors are devices that connect an alarm panel and don't operate independently.  Smoke Alarms are stand alone devices that run off of 120VAC and internal battery power.  These are the things you'll find in Home Depot and Lowes. It doesn't help that HD, Lowes  and the general public often call these smoke detectors rather than alarms.
 
2. The 4219 adds 8 zone inputs.  The 4229 adds 8 zone inputs, plus has 2 SPDT relays that can be used to control other devices.  Could be used as as a step towards home automation.
 
4.  Yes, the aux power would go in its own can.  Probably best to leave it that way.  You could get one large can (say a 28" or 42" can) and put all the other alarm hardware in there.  The Altronix power supplies connect up to 120VAC and don't need an external transformer.
 
One other thing to consider is whether you are going to use End-of-line resistors on your zones.  If you decide to go with EOLRs, and you wire all the windows as a home run with everything on its own zone, then every window should have one at the window contact.  If you share a zone for all the window contacts in a room, then only the last window in the loop would get one.  So I wouldn't install EOLRs until you are sure of your final configuration.
 
You didn't say what cellular communicator you will be using, but usually, these shouldn't be in the same can as the alarm panel.  Better to keep it at least 10 feet away to avoid potential RF interference.

 

[cobra]

Curious why the choice of a Vista 21p over a DSC system?  I made a similar search a year or so ago, and found the DSC to be better for connection to other automation systems  (zone status updates / system update differences.)  I see a lot of people using Vista's though, so curious what swayed you.

 

[TechnoFool]

Cocoonut, thanks again. Good stuff.
 
Cocooner, honestly I can probably still be swayed. I first stumbled across information for the Vista systems and think I understand the basic components pretty well. Which DSC system would you recommend for 48 hardwired zones, 4 panels, siren, cell communicator and any aux power needs? I'm not yet ready to enter the realm of home automation, but could see this as a possibility in the future. Besides automation, what sets the DSC apart from the Vista?

 

[RAL]

When I was trying to choose my own alarm panel, I looked at DSC and Honeywell Vista, as well as others.  I found that DSC and Honeywell panels were pretty similar in their capabilities.  But for my purposes, they were just too limited in their automation functions.
 
Some of the pros on Cocoontech prefer the Vista panels from a manufacturing quality point of view.
 
If you want to look at DSC panels, start with the Power Series Neo, HS2064  or the Power Series PC1864, both of which support up to 64 zones.

 

[Del91574]

Don't put the smokes on their own zones, especially on a Vista panel. You're asking for trouble. What is "gained" by doing fire this way creates other issues down the line, in addition to adding to the complexity and devices that MUST be installed on the system to facilitate proper operation.
 
CO's can NOT be wired to expanders on the Vista panels.
 
Don't homebrew an enclosure for the panel or devices....you're asking for trouble in the long run. For the Vista's you're best off looking into a UL burg enclosure (optional) and then use the original can for the overflow modules you can't fit inside the UL can with the panel. No matter what the panel, you're looking at a separate power supply, which is going to require you to consider the overall current draw, which I'm guessing will NOT exceed 2-3A total, plus batteries. Easy enough to get a small SMP3 or SMP5 and put in the main enclosure with the batteries also.
 
Given what you've put out there as a basic equipment list and price point, honestly, you're within about $100 of a more capable panel such as Elk, with more expansion and other possibilities.
 
As far as windows go, I'm more of a fan of wiring them by room/wall vs. individually for zones. It's easier when/if you need to bypass points instead of 20 window zones. Powered devices should be their own zone, as should critical condition monitoring.
 
From putting all these systems and panels in, DSC has always had QC issues and implementation items. It's a mass market budgetary concern panel. $75-100 for a panel, keypad, battery and siren should pretty much spell it out. Granted, the 20P is slightly more expensive but the subscription based HA offerings are far more robust, at the cost overall for a monthly item, moves the cost off the purchase and into RMR.