Michael McSharry
Active Member
I would guess that Warren has had several Rain8Net returned for lightning analysis so he should have a good handle on what the likely repair will be. You may want to send him an email and see if he is willing to share.
Sprinkler System
- Thread starter dzirkelb
- Start date
pete_c
Guru
I just spoke to Warren a few minutes ago. He said about 90% of the lightning damaged ones had CMOS damage. He stated that the company no longer sells the CMOS chips (ZiLog) and that would make it difficult to repair. I looked at the board and mine was manufactured in 2004. He said he is still using the same one (as mine). I guess I've been lucky. I am adding some more protection. He stated the best protection is on the per solenoid wiring protection. I am also moving the wireless Rainbird Rain sensor wired DS10 to the manifold box outside and disconnecting the connection from the Rain Bird Rain sensor to the Rainbird box inside of the garage (where the rain 8 nets are).
I'm just getting ready to order a drop in replacement. I need to get a master and slave as I have 10 zones. Michael the part numbers of the controllers that I am ordering is the following:
- WGL41050 8-Zone Irrigation controller with serial interface
- WGL41055 8-Zone Serial Irrigation controller expansion module
I current utilize a Cat5E RS-232 cable to the WGL 9 Pin RS-232 to the Digi Edgeport. The connector and order of pins looks to be the same along with the RJ-45 cable that runs from the master controller to the expansion module.
Ordered the two above - 3 weeks.
Meanwhile tested all of the diodes on the two Rain8Nets and found two bad ones on the one Rain8net which appears to be working but not providing any voltage to the sprinkler solenoids. This makes me think though that the CMOS is still OK.
I'm just getting ready to order a drop in replacement. I need to get a master and slave as I have 10 zones. Michael the part numbers of the controllers that I am ordering is the following:
- WGL41050 8-Zone Irrigation controller with serial interface
- WGL41055 8-Zone Serial Irrigation controller expansion module
I current utilize a Cat5E RS-232 cable to the WGL 9 Pin RS-232 to the Digi Edgeport. The connector and order of pins looks to be the same along with the RJ-45 cable that runs from the master controller to the expansion module.
Ordered the two above - 3 weeks.
Meanwhile tested all of the diodes on the two Rain8Nets and found two bad ones on the one Rain8net which appears to be working but not providing any voltage to the sprinkler solenoids. This makes me think though that the CMOS is still OK.
This exact same thing happened to me Friday, took out two ports on my Digi Edgeport 8... the two on the far right side. Swapped ports for the Rain8, but my Jandy pool controller is still without a port. Is it just me or has this been a tough season with all the storms?
pete_c
Guru
Its interesting that 3-4 of us with Rain8's had some sort of lightning affects..and below some folks saw their security panels misbehave all around the same time in different parts of the country.
First time for me here in current home. Its been 8 years. I guess we are lucky that just the ports got knocked out (me my two Rain8Nets). In my older home with the direct connects to serial ports on a PC; lightning knocked out the serial port, NIC card and network switch.
I'm not sure how to fix the port; but someone on ebay is selling just the boards with no case for the Digi Edgeport 8's. For the needed serial port I added a small USB to serial device and plugged it into the Digi 7 port USB hub adjacent to the two Edgeports. I have two other spare Edgeports that I use for testing; but rather fix this one.
Last week one night we did sit outside to see the distant lightning storm light show (appeared miles ago).
First time for me here in current home. Its been 8 years. I guess we are lucky that just the ports got knocked out (me my two Rain8Nets). In my older home with the direct connects to serial ports on a PC; lightning knocked out the serial port, NIC card and network switch.
I'm not sure how to fix the port; but someone on ebay is selling just the boards with no case for the Digi Edgeport 8's. For the needed serial port I added a small USB to serial device and plugged it into the Digi 7 port USB hub adjacent to the two Edgeports. I have two other spare Edgeports that I use for testing; but rather fix this one.
Last week one night we did sit outside to see the distant lightning storm light show (appeared miles ago).
You mean something like the suppressor from tmanufacturing.com?
pete_c
Guru
Yes and like the diagram for the Rainbird system. Personally though I would go maybe with a separate RS-232 inline setup and keep the TMFG for just the solenoids. I can't fit two in my Rainbird box and would have to go inside of the basement and cut the PVC sheathing to get to the sprinkler wires though. The forecast for tomorrow here in the MW states severe and spotty thunderstorms. I wonder what we will get. Last week with all of the storms; only got less than 1.5" of rain; not really enough water with the current average temperatures.
Meanwhile I am adding a few more heads to a couple of zones such that it'll cover the lawn a bit better. I am also disconnecting the two wires from the Rainbird rain sensor in the manifold box that are going to the Rainbird box. Its not an issue to connect the DS10 inside of the manifold box. The rainbird rain sensor has really never been adjusted so when it gets wet; it stays in the on position for about 1-2 days after rain; so I don't really use it for my sprinkler system.
Meanwhile I am adding a few more heads to a couple of zones such that it'll cover the lawn a bit better. I am also disconnecting the two wires from the Rainbird rain sensor in the manifold box that are going to the Rainbird box. Its not an issue to connect the DS10 inside of the manifold box. The rainbird rain sensor has really never been adjusted so when it gets wet; it stays in the on position for about 1-2 days after rain; so I don't really use it for my sprinkler system.
pete_c
Guru
Just noticed that I lost another serial port on the second Digi Edgeport. I am using about 20 something serial ports for my HSPro automation.
I have one non parasitic network (powered) outside and connected to a 9097 serial one wire device. I have one application which is watching two 1-wire serially connected 9097's. Interesting that the 9097 and all of the devices hanging off of it are doing fine; just the serial port is what was affected; and only one of 8 was affected (the second digi edgeport).
I have two Temp08's and a Temp05 with outside sensors and inside 1-wire sensors. The Temp0X's and the serial ports that they are connected to are doing just fine. None of these have non parasitic outdoor sensors (powered) connected to them.
This issue now makes me want to purchase some serial line protection and USB line protection (added saftey) and see what happens the next time we get such an electrical storm.
I have one non parasitic network (powered) outside and connected to a 9097 serial one wire device. I have one application which is watching two 1-wire serially connected 9097's. Interesting that the 9097 and all of the devices hanging off of it are doing fine; just the serial port is what was affected; and only one of 8 was affected (the second digi edgeport).
I have two Temp08's and a Temp05 with outside sensors and inside 1-wire sensors. The Temp0X's and the serial ports that they are connected to are doing just fine. None of these have non parasitic outdoor sensors (powered) connected to them.
This issue now makes me want to purchase some serial line protection and USB line protection (added saftey) and see what happens the next time we get such an electrical storm.
Pete,
For the outside powered 1 wire devices, where does the power come from? Ideally the source would be the same place as the thing it connects to - plug the cord for it into the same outlet inside as the port server, then run the low voltage power along with the one wire conductors. If the power comes from somewhere else you create a loop that can pickup noise, etc.
For serial port protection think about optical or other isolation for your difficult cases. Isolated RS232 boxes are available - not cheap but not too expensive. Transient clamps are effective but must divert the energy properly to eliminate damage. Isolation is another method and they can be combined.
You could also think about optical isolation of the valve control voltages. I plan to make my own sprinkler zone controller with opto triac outputs. You could also use the output of a Rain8 or other controller to drive optotriacs and get very good protection. If you roll your own circuit the cost is only a couple dollars per zone.
Jim
For the outside powered 1 wire devices, where does the power come from? Ideally the source would be the same place as the thing it connects to - plug the cord for it into the same outlet inside as the port server, then run the low voltage power along with the one wire conductors. If the power comes from somewhere else you create a loop that can pickup noise, etc.
For serial port protection think about optical or other isolation for your difficult cases. Isolated RS232 boxes are available - not cheap but not too expensive. Transient clamps are effective but must divert the energy properly to eliminate damage. Isolation is another method and they can be combined.
You could also think about optical isolation of the valve control voltages. I plan to make my own sprinkler zone controller with opto triac outputs. You could also use the output of a Rain8 or other controller to drive optotriacs and get very good protection. If you roll your own circuit the cost is only a couple dollars per zone.
Jim
pete_c
Guru
Jim,
Thank-you for your suggestions. We had another brief (4 hours or so) of severe lightning last night. I ran out of serial ports on the Digi box from the previous lightning damage to the Digi serial ports so I used an external USB to serial device for the 1-wire 9097 that was affected. It did not get affected by the lightning last night (lucky I guess). I did find an Ebayer selling just the Digi 8 serial port / 1 USB boards and purchased two yesterday. I have a spare set which I like to keep for testing HA stuff; so this way I can keep my spare set.
I am using two sets of voltages for the 1-wire non parasitic devices networks. I think relating to just the outside non parasitic devices; it's only one voltage. The Digi 8 Edgeports are non externally powered other than what they get from the 1 Digi 7 port USB which has its own power supply. The power supply there is on the same protected circuit as all of the rest of the LV "stuff" on or near the media panel. The computer (s) on adjacent but about 10-15 feet away with 3 separate circuits / breakers also protected and on UPS. Last year I also installed a commercial style surge protection device (understanding that it would help me with outside to in voltage transients; but really not help me if I had a lightning strike hitting any of the LV stuff outside). The "neat" thing about the commercial device is that it has a module which checks for transient voltages and can connect to the alarm panel (which I haven't connected yet).
I've seen these small RS-232 (9 pin in/out) devices similiar to what you describe. I was going to start with the protection initially on just the devices that were affected. Rain8Nets and the 1-Wire / non parasitic network that goes outside. The 9097 serial device still functions fine so I can continue to utilize it. The parasitic 1-wire network with the rain tipping bucket (1-wire counter), lightning sensor (dual counter), AAG weather instrument and multiple temperature/humidity sensors did not get affected by the lightning.
I am having to replace the two Rain8Nets; so there I will be protecting the solenoids with some sort of transient voltage protection. I also had the RainBird rain sensor mounted on the peak of the roof with the cable running to the sprinkler wiring cluster and had connected the endpoint to a DS10. I removed the DS10 from the garage Rainbird box (which housed the Rain8Nets) and disconnected the Rainbird rain sensor wires in the outside manifold box and connected the DS10 there instead of inside. In FL I noticed that the Rainbird rain sensor is mounted only about 5 feet from the ground on the side of the house. I did have a lightning or voltage transient affect (2 years ago) the Rainbird ESP sprinkler system there. It did hit the power supply and fuses for the ESP module (easy fix) and knocked out about 1/2 of the solenoids outside (easy to fix but time consuming).
Historically I was more of a Knight / Heathkit builder but have done "stuff" on boards following a schematic drawing. (recently "built" little PS for LED power supply kits).
Would it be advantageous to put the sprinkler solenoid transient voltage protection where the solenoids connect to the wiring cluster outside in the manifold sprinkler box using a ground stake inside of the manifold box?
Thank-you for your suggestions. We had another brief (4 hours or so) of severe lightning last night. I ran out of serial ports on the Digi box from the previous lightning damage to the Digi serial ports so I used an external USB to serial device for the 1-wire 9097 that was affected. It did not get affected by the lightning last night (lucky I guess). I did find an Ebayer selling just the Digi 8 serial port / 1 USB boards and purchased two yesterday. I have a spare set which I like to keep for testing HA stuff; so this way I can keep my spare set.
I am using two sets of voltages for the 1-wire non parasitic devices networks. I think relating to just the outside non parasitic devices; it's only one voltage. The Digi 8 Edgeports are non externally powered other than what they get from the 1 Digi 7 port USB which has its own power supply. The power supply there is on the same protected circuit as all of the rest of the LV "stuff" on or near the media panel. The computer (s) on adjacent but about 10-15 feet away with 3 separate circuits / breakers also protected and on UPS. Last year I also installed a commercial style surge protection device (understanding that it would help me with outside to in voltage transients; but really not help me if I had a lightning strike hitting any of the LV stuff outside). The "neat" thing about the commercial device is that it has a module which checks for transient voltages and can connect to the alarm panel (which I haven't connected yet).
I've seen these small RS-232 (9 pin in/out) devices similiar to what you describe. I was going to start with the protection initially on just the devices that were affected. Rain8Nets and the 1-Wire / non parasitic network that goes outside. The 9097 serial device still functions fine so I can continue to utilize it. The parasitic 1-wire network with the rain tipping bucket (1-wire counter), lightning sensor (dual counter), AAG weather instrument and multiple temperature/humidity sensors did not get affected by the lightning.
I am having to replace the two Rain8Nets; so there I will be protecting the solenoids with some sort of transient voltage protection. I also had the RainBird rain sensor mounted on the peak of the roof with the cable running to the sprinkler wiring cluster and had connected the endpoint to a DS10. I removed the DS10 from the garage Rainbird box (which housed the Rain8Nets) and disconnected the Rainbird rain sensor wires in the outside manifold box and connected the DS10 there instead of inside. In FL I noticed that the Rainbird rain sensor is mounted only about 5 feet from the ground on the side of the house. I did have a lightning or voltage transient affect (2 years ago) the Rainbird ESP sprinkler system there. It did hit the power supply and fuses for the ESP module (easy fix) and knocked out about 1/2 of the solenoids outside (easy to fix but time consuming).
Historically I was more of a Knight / Heathkit builder but have done "stuff" on boards following a schematic drawing. (recently "built" little PS for LED power supply kits).
Would it be advantageous to put the sprinkler solenoid transient voltage protection where the solenoids connect to the wiring cluster outside in the manifold sprinkler box using a ground stake inside of the manifold box?
I think my disaster came from my pool equipment, through the Jandy serial controller and blew out whatever chip handled the ports 6 and 8 of my Edgeport/8. In fact, I replaced my pool heater earlier this year because an electrical storm took out the computer board inside of it.
pete_c
Guru
The seller which is selling the Digi 8 port boards agreed to a $40 a piece price plus shipping if you are interested in getting another Digi 8 port board. Note that its only the board and not the case. Historically I've not paid more than $50 for a used Digi Edgeport 8.
Digi Edgeport 8 board
Years ago in the early 2000's I had my home automation server only connected to two serial devices via the 9 pin RS-232 ports on the computer. Lightning took out the serial ports but the computer kept working. It also took out one of two switches (hubs) in the home at the time. This time I noticed the network switches (mostly now Gb) continued to work; but one of them went into a beaconing mode of sorts and had to be reset as it became disfunctional a bit.
I think you mentioned that it was only the Digi box that was affected and not the Jandy Serial controller eh?
Digi Edgeport 8 board
Years ago in the early 2000's I had my home automation server only connected to two serial devices via the 9 pin RS-232 ports on the computer. Lightning took out the serial ports but the computer kept working. It also took out one of two switches (hubs) in the home at the time. This time I noticed the network switches (mostly now Gb) continued to work; but one of them went into a beaconing mode of sorts and had to be reset as it became disfunctional a bit.
I think you mentioned that it was only the Digi box that was affected and not the Jandy Serial controller eh?
If you are suggesting an additional ground rod at that location my opinion would be no, that isn't a good idea. The problem is that for near strikes the voltage on one side of the house can be significantly different than on the other. Everything should tie back to the same ground rod for the whole house.
Surge protection returned to a ground is a good idea. The question is where to use for the "ground". I would use the ground of the outlet near the sprinkler box. This returns to your breaker panel and (most likely) be the same ground as everything else.
There are two modes of transients - common and differential. Common mode are between the signal wires and ground. Differential mode are between the signal wires and other signal wires. You need to protect against both but I would guess that common mode are your bigger problem - thus the suggestion for isolation.
pete_c
Guru
Thank-you JimS.
Yes today the panel has a ground strap going the main water inlet nearby. It is inside 3/4" conduit. The whole house is using conduit and copper water pipes. At the top of the panel is another ground strap which goes outside to a ground rod. IE: my 1-wire lightning sensor on the roof is utilizing a dual shielded cable grounded at the service entrance.
I have both copper water and conduit adjacent to the Rainbird box and below into the basement where the wires go. I can ground any transient voltage stuff to within about a foot or so. Yes I think the issue with the RS-232 stuff was more related to common mode transients.
I still remember; it was around the late 70's; CB radios were very popular. A friend and I decided to put up a couple of CB radio antennas between the houses which were a couple of miles apart. We were not finished when a storm approached. We climbed off the roof; we had put the coaxial cable into the family room. We were getting ready to complete the grounding when we notice sparking between the end of the antenna lead and an outlet maybe a foot a half away. We were in awe and just sat watching the sparks for quite a while. Later we properly grounded everything.
Yes today the panel has a ground strap going the main water inlet nearby. It is inside 3/4" conduit. The whole house is using conduit and copper water pipes. At the top of the panel is another ground strap which goes outside to a ground rod. IE: my 1-wire lightning sensor on the roof is utilizing a dual shielded cable grounded at the service entrance.
I have both copper water and conduit adjacent to the Rainbird box and below into the basement where the wires go. I can ground any transient voltage stuff to within about a foot or so. Yes I think the issue with the RS-232 stuff was more related to common mode transients.
I still remember; it was around the late 70's; CB radios were very popular. A friend and I decided to put up a couple of CB radio antennas between the houses which were a couple of miles apart. We were not finished when a storm approached. We climbed off the roof; we had put the coaxial cable into the family room. We were getting ready to complete the grounding when we notice sparking between the end of the antenna lead and an outlet maybe a foot a half away. We were in awe and just sat watching the sparks for quite a while. Later we properly grounded everything.
I was in high school in the 70's when CBs were the rage. Someone through a friend asked me if I could repair their CB. It seems they were putting up an antenna on the roof on a tall mast and it got away from them and tipped toward the high voltage utility wires. They jumped back when they realized they couldn't stop it and saved themselves but the antenna hit the lines. The coax was connected to the CB rig. Needless to say there wasn't much left of it. They were lucky they didn't have a fire. Most of the connectors were vaporized.
Probably not much different than moderate lightning damage.
pete_c
Guru
Just spoke to the next door neighbor. I guess I was lucky with the lightning damage that occurred.
He lost the use of his alarm panel, coffee maker, radios, TV's, modems, etc.
JimS,
In the sixties I was into ham radio learned a bit about antennas and electrical lines; climbing on the roof of my parents house and putting up a dipole antenna between the peak of their home and a telephone pole adjacent to the house property. I was safe but I shouldn't have been using the electric pole for the other side of my antenna.
He lost the use of his alarm panel, coffee maker, radios, TV's, modems, etc.
JimS,
In the sixties I was into ham radio learned a bit about antennas and electrical lines; climbing on the roof of my parents house and putting up a dipole antenna between the peak of their home and a telephone pole adjacent to the house property. I was safe but I shouldn't have been using the electric pole for the other side of my antenna.
