Total Home Surge Protector

[pete_c]

The PTX-160  is mounted adjacent to the fuse panel with its connections to two 30 AMP breakers (on each phase).
 
The Supco is mounted outside next to the AC unit / where the two phases of electric go into the home.
 
It is there only to protect the outside AC unit from direct surges / transients.
 
Received device yesterday and installing it today or tomorrow.  Looks to be plug n play. 
 
Here is a video relating to installation (well and an advertisement). 
 
I just have a plain old Carrier outside (well and its not stainless steel looking - never seen one like that).
 
http://youtu.be/zOeieKjstYs
 

 

[pete_c]

2nd of August, 2014 - 1300c
 
The endeavor begins.  Note first pictures.  I took the cover off of the outside breaker.  I see two black ~ 8 -10 gauge wires connected to the 220 VAC disconnect.
 
Odd thing is that there is a neutral inside of the box and no neutral wires present and not coming in from the fuse panel conduit.  I think this is the original wiring. 
 
Questions right now.  Looked around for some 8-10 gauge white stranded electrical cable and all I have is 12 gauge.  The run from the box to the fuse panel is about 2 feet or so.  The PITA part is that I have to remove the cover of the fuse panel and outside compressor to run a neutral wire.  The surge protector has three wires; two hot and one neutral.  There is no neutral wire (white) going to the compressor.  Speaking to a peer about this endeavor (he did the same).  He had 2 hot, 1 neutral and 1 ground going to the outside box.
 
Took the cover off of the AC unit to look at the wiring and there is a neutral bus bar there with nothing connected to it.  It should be easy then to run a neutral wire from there to the outside fuse box. 
 
Will also post a picture of the blown capacitor (which was replaced a couple of weeks ago).  The base is so rounded that it doesn't sit flat on any surface.  The top is also bulging a bit.
 
1 - Will it be OK to run the 12 gauge white neutral wire to the fuse panel ?
or
2 - should I purchase some 8 gauge wire?
and
3 - Seeing this; is this a "faux pas"  thing?
 
Here is a picture of what I see.  The new outside unit is higher than the old one such that I cannot remove the door; just flip it up to work in the box (real PITA).  Well and the conduit through the brick is there so it would be sort of a real pain to move the move.  I did look at moving it when the new unit was installed.
 

 
Fuse panel neutral block and grounding picture.
 

 
- Purchased 15 feet (way too much) of 8 gauge stranded white wire and some terminal ends. ($11.00 USD)
 

 
- removed fuse panel cover
 

 
3nd of August, 2014 0700c (AC off for 30 minutes)
 

Picture of exterior disconnect and AC contactor / capacitor and ground block.
 
- shut off AC via thermostat, switch at furnace, air cleaner and tandem 40 amp breaker
- ran neutral 8 gauge white wire from neutral block in exterior AC disconnect box to neutral block in AC unit
Here I had to disconnect the 2 black hot 8 guage wires and remove the conduit to pass the neutral 8 gauge wire through.
This part was a bit more time consuming but made it much easier to run the new neutral cable.
- installed surge protector removing knockout on exterior disconnect box
- connect two black wires to hot leads on the egress of the fuse.
- connect Sepco ground white wire to neutral block
- turned on tandem 40 fuse panel breaker, switch at furnace and air cleaner.
- turned AC on at thermostat
- validated function of LED lamp on surge protector (working)
- put the fuse panel cover back on
 
What I didn't do -
- I didn't run a white neutral 8 guage wire from the neutral block in the exterior disconnect to the fuse panel neutral block.

 

[Del91574]

Neutral must be sized to carry the ampacity of the hot conductor.

 

[pete_c]

Thank-you Del.   It goes to a double 40 AMP breaker in the fuse panel.
 
Just looked at some pictures of another one that a peer sent and the neutral wire is there from the fuse panel to bus bar to the compressor.
 
Different as it looks like the neutral wire going to the compressor is white and there is another wire in place. 
 
The wires from the fuse panel look to be maybe 8-10 guage and the wires to the compressor look to be 12 gauge though.
 

 
Looks to be 8-10 gauge and there is plenty of room in the conduit to pass the cable. 
 
Just have to purchase some maybe 10 feet of the cable.

 

[Del91574]

Could be (though not recommended practice) as you're in Chi-land, they were using conduit as the path, when they really shouldn't have.

 

[RAL]

If I am understanding you correctly, there is nothing connected to the neutral wire that comes into the AC unit, right?  The only reason a neutral would be needed is if some part of the compressor needed to run off of 120 VAC, rather then the full 220 VAC.   If the unit doesn't connect to the neutral, then it seems like the installer happened to have some 8-3 cable handy rather than 8-2 and just used what he had. That would explain why there is no neutral wire from the exterior disconnect box back to the main breaker panel. 

 

[pete_c]

Thank-you RAL.
 

if I am understanding you correctly, there is nothing connected to the neutral wire that comes into the AC unit, right?

 
There is no neutral wire in place at all today from the fuse panel to the exterior fuse box to the AC contactor.  It appears that the metal box, conduit and AC unit metal is the neutral. (well that is the assumption)
 
That said though much of the conduit is a bit rusty.  The new surge protector utilizes the two hot and one neutral wire.  I am just adding a neutral wire.   Its all single run cable not in a jacket.
 
It has worked like this now for over 10 years.  I did though lose a capacitor a couple of weeks ago.  I am probably making a bigger deal out of this than I should.

 

[Del91574]

Too much on the brain and didn't pay close enough to detaisl 220 doesn't need neutral but should have a ground installed and bonded.

 

[pete_c]

Thank you Del and RAL for your help with said endeavor.

 

[JimS]

There is no neutral wire in place at all today from the fuse panel to the exterior fuse box to the AC contactor.  It appears that the metal box, conduit and AC unit metal is the neutral. (well that is the assumption)
 
That said though much of the conduit is a bit rusty.  The new surge protector utilizes the two hot and one neutral wire.  I am just adding a neutral wire.   Its all single run cable not in a jacket.

Sounds like you may be mixing up the terms neutral and ground. They aren't the same thing. The neutral should not connect to the frame of the disconnect box or the frame of the AC unit - these are to be ground. The difference is that the neutral is intended to carry load current and the ground is not - it is only a safety ground for the frames of equipment. The enclosures need to connect to a ground wire, normally bare or green. I am not sure about the whole system but I see white wires connected to black wires and white wires connected to the bonding (ground) strip. Both of these raise questions. It used to be that you could run wires and just tape the ends with different colored tape if the insulation color was not correct but I don't think that is allowed under current code and I don't see any tape.

 

[pete_c]

Sounds like you may be mixing up the terms neutral and ground. They aren't the same thing.

 
Thank-you JimS.
 
Understood.  I looked at a variety of internal fuse panel pictures and most of them show two separate neutral blocks and one ground block inside of the fuse panel.
 
I looked at mine and it only has the two neutral blocks.  There is one 4 guage bare copper ground wire running in 1" conduit from the water ingress pipe to the fuse panel (maybe 50-60 feet away).  That connection goes to the center ingress of the fuse panel and is connected to the same / adjacent neutral from the electric company.  The feed neutral wire has a small piece of white tape on it.  Then there is another 6 gauge black wire (it probably should be a white wire) going from one neutral block to the metal case of the fuse panel.
 
The fuse wires are all black or red (there are a couple of blue ones).  The neutral wires going to the neutral blocks are all white except for the aforementioned black 8 gauge wire running to the fuse panel chassis.
 
Over the years I added more grounding such that there is another wire from the fuse panel chassis to a stake outside adjacent to the ingress of electricity.
 
The electric panel / house is approximately 12 years old.
 
You have me wondering now whether the fuse panel is wired correctly or not correctly relative to ground and neutral.

 

[JimS]

This is a point of confusion for many people. Ground and neutral are connected together at the main panel but not anywhere else. The bus bar in a typical panel will have a green screw that, if installed, connects the bus bar to the enclosure (ground). In sub panels the screw is not meant to be installed and that bus bar used for the neutral. A second bus bar, which sometimes has to be bought as an additional item, is used for ground and is screwed directly to the subpanel enclosure.

My understanding (I am not an electrician but work in electronics field) is that the hot wires can be any color except white or green. White is neutral, green is ground. Most common for hot is black or red but, mostly in commercial installations, many other colors are used, probably to make tracing the many circuits easier.

It appears the surge units you have use a white wire that they instruct to be connected to ground. Seems strange but if they are meant for main panel installation white and green wires all go to the same bus bars so I suppose it may not be an issue.

My guess (and it is just that from the limited info I have) is that the main panel is likely wired properly. What I am questioning is the disconnect and AC wiring. Since there is no neutral needed for the typical AC unit it may be that what you are calling "neutral" could be considered a ground since it runs back to the main panel with no other connections just as a ground wire would but the color may be wrong.

Someone who is up on the latest code will hopefully add their comments...

 

[RAL]

This is a point of confusion for many people. Ground and neutral are connected together at the main panel but not anywhere else. The bus bar in a typical panel will have a green screw that, if installed, connects the bus bar to the enclosure (ground). In sub panels the screw is not meant to be installed and that bus bar used for the neutral. A second bus bar, which sometimes has to be bought as an additional item, is used for ground and is screwed directly to the subpanel enclosure.
 

 
Just to expand on your explanation a bit, in the main panel, you may find one or two bus bars.  If there is only one, you connect all grounds/neutrals to that one bar.  If there are two, you'll usually see all grounds connected to one bus bar and all neutrals connected to the other.  But as you said, the neutral and the ground bus bar are both bonded to the enclosure through the use of a screw, so from an electrical point of view, they are connected and both at ground potential.
 
In a sub panel, you MUST have two bus bars.  The ground bus bar is bonded to the enclosure, but the neutral bus bar is electrically isolated from the enclosure through the use of an insulator.
 
I agree with you that the surge protector probably should have a green wire rather than a white wire on it, since it is meant to connect to ground.

 

[RAL]

Over the years I added more grounding such that there is another wire from the fuse panel chassis to a stake outside adjacent to the ingress of electricity.

 
My understanding of the NEC is that you should have only one grounding conductor from the electrical panel to earth ground.   This conductor should connect to both the water pipes and an external ground rod, but both should be wired back to the main panel through a single conductor.
 
The reason is that if there is a lightning strike nearby, the difference in the resistance of the earth between the two ground points (the ground rod and the water pipe) can result in huge differences in voltage between the two ground wires, and you will have that entering your electrical panel.
 

 

[pete_c]

Thanks guys.
 
Yup the instructions for the Supco surge protector state to connect the white wire to a ground bus.
 
My addition grounding outside / stake is relating to the lightning arrestors and other cables coming into the home.  This is the grounding of the coaxial cables mostly.  That said I did run another ground cable inside of the house from blocks of couplers used for the coaxial cables to the conduit such that its not a direct to the fuse panel connection but rather via the conduit. Earlier I stated that the grounding was going to the fuse panel and it is but via the conduit adjacent to the fuse panel.
 
Should I remove the ground wires from the coaxial blocks that connect to the conduit? 
 
These blocks are adjacent to the fuse panel.  Is this a dangerous ground configuration?
 
I also have the HAI OPII panel ground connected to the same conduit.