UPB and Omni with multiple Main Panels

[jharrell]

Looking at buying a new building for my company and would like to do UPB lighting control along with security/fire using an OmniPro.

I have a Omni at home and love it, did the setup myself, has both UPB and X10.

Anyway the building I am looking at is about 5000 sqft but split into two sides each with their own 225 amp main panels. I will be taking down walls and making into one large office.

I can't seem to find anything on how to bring two separate electrical systems under one Omni control.

Does the Omni support more than one UPB pim connected at the same time, one on each panel?

Would a phase coupler work between the panels? For some reason I think this would violate code and could be dangerous as you might shut the main breaker down on one panel but could get some current back through the coupler from the other panel thats still on?

Thanks for any advice.

 

[Steve]

You can only have one UPB network configured. I know you can configure 2 serial ports as UPB but I'm pretty sure the signal only goes out the lowest numbered port. I am not aware of any other device for this setup but I would check with PCS. All that said, you just may get lucky anyway. I'm assuming both panels come from the same transformer and maybe the transformer is close by. If everything is in good shape it may just be possible that the signal can get from one panel to the other via the transformer, you'd just have to try it and see how strong the signal is. There's always wireless which the OmniPro supports as well in case UPB doesn't work out.

 

[Desert_AIP]

Just spitballing ideas but...
Wonder if it would be possible to use a UPB three phase coupler and hook up each of your panels to a phase (leaving the third unconnected).

 

[Old11C4]

Simply Automated has a "Three-Phase Repeater & Computer Interface (CIM) MODEL UTR" -- HOWEVER it is listed as being designed for three phases 120 degrees apart. Note, it is pricy but also includes a CIM. UTR Installation Guide

The three phase coupler or even a wire in two phase coupler may work, but I think such would violate manufactures instruction manuals and thus code.

From Their FAQ
"5. Q: Can Simply Automated UPB products be used on 3-phase power systems?

A: UPB devices, including those made by Simply Automated, can be used on 3-phase power systems only when a 3-phase coupler/repeater is installed. A repeater is required to time-shift the UPB pulses so that they will appear in the correct position on the AC sine wave of all three phases. Contact Powerline Control Systems (PCS) for more information on 3-phase coupler/repeaters."

You may wish to track down PCS at www.pcslighting.com. They have Residential UPB based systems and also commercial systems. I would also expand my search to commercial lighting control systems.

Good luck
Old11C4


P.S. "... along with security/fire using ..." Fire Alarms in a commercial building are a whole new ball of wax.

 

[mustangcoupe]

I agree that using a coupler for this would be against code
I think that Steve's idea about the same transformer ect.. and you may be lucky.
and Old11C4 has a good point. I looked into a security/fire panel here at my office, (using a standard panel) and the alarm guy said that for a commercial building you need a dedicated commercial fire panel if you are going to have it notify the co and dispatch fire personnel. but for local notifications it was better then nothing, but did not meet the towns requirements for a business fire system.

 

[jharrell]

The fire/smoke side would be just in addition to what required for commercial code. It would just be nice to be notified on my cell of a intrusion or fire alarm.

I don't believe it is three phase electrical, just standard two phase 240/120, with the two panels obviously connected to the same transformer outside.

So I don't think a three phase coupler would do any good over a standard coupler. I think a coupler would work to bridge the signal, as it's really no different than bridging the two phases in the panel, it just that it creates another path for electricity into a panel that would otherwise be turned off by it's main breaker.

Really surprised this doesn't occur more often even in residential, with guest houses, or basement apartments, workshops, etc.

I was really hoping I could just set two serial ports to UPB mode on the Omni and have two PIM's active with one UPB network ID.

It would be nice to have a UPB repeater that just uses two pims and repeats UPB commands two way, perhaps I could develop some software to run on a PC, although ideally an opto-isolated solution would be nice.

 

[AO-Brandon]

if you use the ELK-IP232 connected directly to the serial port of the HAI set in "server" mode and one ELK-IP232 connected to a PIM on each panel set in "client" mode, you will be able to communicate. It allows you to trick the HAI, it still thinks that only one PIM is connected, but both of them get commands / transmit status.

 

[jharrell]

Interesting, has this actually been tried with success somewhere?

I may try a couple of active repeaters in each panel and hope it will be strong enough to transverse the transformer outside and back.

 

[cornutt]

I don't believe it is three phase electrical, just standard two phase 240/120, with the two panels obviously connected to the same transformer outside.

This is precisely the way my house is set up, and UPB works fine. As long as they are both on the same utility feed, there should be no problem.