Upgrade to Elk Two-way Wireless?

[TheHeadFL]

Hey all,
 
I have a M1G in my home that was present when I bought it, and during the last 5 years or so I've had to try to figure out what components I have and how they are configured.  Anyway, I say this because I have no idea exactly what components were originally installed, but I've been able to figure out most of them, I think.
 
Most of my zones are hard-wired, however I do have a wireless zone expander (M1XRF2G) which runs the zones for my front door and 4 other window zones that were evidently difficult to hard-wire.  I believe this was all installed in 2007 when the original M1G was installed, and so the batteries are likely that old.  (I haven't changed them and they seem to still work)
 
I've also had an intermittent issue with the front door sensor (recessed door contact type... i.e. sunk into the frame) where occasionally it will read violated (I open the door), but when I close the door it doesn't return to non-violated.  This is obviously a problem since it has caused my alarm to go off on a couple occasions when I've armed it on the way out the door, and I wonder if it could be a low battery issue, although as I understand it the control should indicate some form of low battery trouble if that were the case...
 
Anyway, I've recently been exploring adding things like glass-break sensors, motion detectors, control-connected smoke detectors (my existing are just the 'dumb' type), etc.  So since the RF2G seems to be quite old, I've found it difficult to find much info about it, and what types of sensors might be supported.  (GE sensors, I think?)  Also, given my front door intermittent problems, I am wondering if it is smart to invest more money in the existing system, or would I be better served by upgrading to the Two-way wireless system.  The main attractive feature would be the fact that sensor events are seemingly confirmed, and so I would not need to worry about intermittent connections.  (I would hope)  However, the sensor choices for the two-way wireless seem quite limited.
 
Obviously replacing everything with the two-way wireless would be quite expensive, but if my existing setup is truly obsolete, I wouldn't mind getting with the latest and greatest.
 
Thoughts?

 

[RAL]

If your wireless batteries are 5-7 years old, it's time to replace them as a first step.  Also, you probably should replace the SLA battery in the M1 itself, if you haven't already replaced it (not that this has anything to do with your problems).  An old battery in the door contact could very well be the source of your intermittent problem.
 
I wouldn't call the XRF2G obsolete.  There are lots of sensors out there that will work with it.  Just look for sensors the are 319.5 MHz "crystal" sensors.  There are glass break detectors, smokes and PIRs in this family.   The manual for the M1XRF2G contains a list of compatible transmitters.
 
There is also a newer GE compatible receiver for the Elk, the M1XRFEG.  This will work with the older "crystal" transmitters as well as newer, non-crystal transmitters, including those from other manufacturers.
 
So, one option to consider is upgrading your receiver to an M1XRFEG, keeping the transmitters you already have, and adding new, non-crystal transmitters if you can't find a crystal-class transmitter than fits your needs.
 
I'm not sure switching to the Elk two-way receiver will do anything to improve your intermittent problems.  The two-way capability allows the receiver to notify the transmitter that it has heard its signal, and that tells the transmitter it can stop transmitting, improving battery life.  But if the receiver doesn't hear the transmission in the first place, then the two way capability doesn't help much.  The transmitter will continue to send out it's signal in that case, and that might improve the odds that it will be heard.   But the GE transmitters send out their signal multiple times, too, so it's debatable whether one is more likely to get through vs the other.

 

[TheHeadFL]

I have replaced the main panel battery previously, since the control does report battery trouble for it.
 
What other non-GE transmitters would that receiver (RFEG) support?  Would it work with the Honeywell ones?

 

[TheHeadFL]

Actually, what is the difference between the old and new GE sensor types?

 

[RAL]

The older GE sensors are crystal controlled, while the newer ones use SAW oscillators, which allows designs that draw less power, are smaller and less expensive.
 
The M1XRFEG receiver is a newer design than the M1XRF2G, and is compatible with the SAW and crystal based sensors.  Being a newer design, it has a higher level of integration and has many fewer components on the circuit board.  This allows it to draw less power than the 2G receiver.
 
The M1XRFEG is only compatible with transmitters that use the GE protocol, such as those from Resolution.  There's a list of compatible sensors in the M1XRFEG manual.  Ion also makes sensors that they claim are compatible with GE and the M1.
 
Honeywell sensors operate on a different frequency, and are not compatible with the GE receivers.  You can use Honeywell sensors with the M1 if you install a M1XRF2H receiver, which is designed to work with the Honeywell 5800 series. 
 
It's possible to have both a GE and Honeywell receiver attached to the M1, although there aren't many people who do that.

 

[tmbrown97]

The Ion sensors do work - I like their window sensors; not as fond of their door sensors.

 

[Del91574]

@ RAL: While the Elk can support all 3 receivers on the same system hypothetically, Elk specifically states to NOT do this in their documents. I'd defer to their experience before taking the plunge.
You have the type of GE transmitters and vintage reversed. GE (originally ITI) SAW was first to market before crystal units. The difference is SAW has a wider range of "frequency" they function on; A crystal receiver may receive SAW signals but if there's subtle variations in the frequency, then there's issues. Crystal allows tighter frequency control on the transmitter. ITI SAW sensors existed back in the late 80's early 90's and I was installing them in the mid-90's. (ITI SAW learn mode sensors on the old ITI Commander, Ultragard and Caretakers). Crystal came out in the early '00's.

The only reason why Elk modified their receivers is to support the legacy devices and the new units to sell more panels. It was a bad sales point to tell end users their obsolete ITI panels and products couldn't be supported by X manufacturer's panels yet GE, Caddx and even Radionics(Bosch) did. Even the M1 is very spiritually similar to those old ITI panels.
 
 
The door transmitter issue sounds more like a poorly aligned magnet, although a transmitter failure is not beyond the realm. Doubtful it's a battery; I have many of those including the old ITI lifetime battery units (3.6V AA) out in the field untouched for 20+ years (warrantied for 15 by ITI).

 

[RAL]

@DEL thanks for the correction.  I was under the impression that since the support for SAW devices came later, that they were the newer devices.

 

[RAL]

@DEL -
 
I haven't come across anything from Elk that says you can't mix types of wireless receivers.  Quite the contrary. In the Overview section of the M1XRF2H manual, it says:
 
IMPORTANT: As this time Elk produces two different models of Wireless (RF) Receivers. The M1XRF2H, designed for Honeywell
(Ademco) wireless transmitters, and the M1XRF2G, designed for GE (Caddx) wireless transmitters. YOU MUST HAVE THE
CORRECT MODEL RECEIVER TO MATCH THE BRAND OF TRANSMITTERS YOU ARE INSTALLING. It is possible to combine both
receiver models on an a single M1 Installation and use a mix of both brands of transmitters. But extreme care must be exercised
to assure that each transmitter brand is within range of it's respective receiver model. In other words, the receivers are
physically and electronically different and can only receive the transmissions of their particular brand transmitters.
 
There is a similar statement in the M1XRFEG manual.  But there is no such statement in the 2G manual.
 
Maybe Elk has backed off on an earlier recommendation not to mix types?

 

[Del91574]

They put it into the bidirectional white papers if I remember right. They could've possibly flip-flopped their earlier. Then again, I've been dealing with M1 RF since the Caddx 448's and 548's.

 

[SSNH]

****Don't discount a translator if you wish to mix things up a bit...****
http://resolutionproducts.com/wireless
 

 

[Del91574]

****Don't discount a translator if you wish to mix things up a bit...****
http://resolutionproducts.com/wireless
 

For burglary devices only and must be battery backed up. Also, their application is limited to the more recently offered RF devices.

 

[TheHeadFL]

Thanks for all the information guys!
 
I think I will stick with the wireless I have now, but I need to figure out my door situation.  I took a look at it and the door has a bit of sag to it (the transmitter is mounted in the top corner of the door furthest from the hinge) so the sensor gap when closed is probably approaching something like 3 mm.  The alignment looks pretty good (maybe 1-2mm off laterally).  I'm going to see if I can get the gap a little smaller.

 

[mikefamig]

Thanks for all the information guys!
 
I think I will stick with the wireless I have now, but I need to figure out my door situation.  I took a look at it and the door has a bit of sag to it (the transmitter is mounted in the top corner of the door furthest from the hinge) so the sensor gap when closed is probably approaching something like 3 mm.  The alignment looks pretty good (maybe 1-2mm off laterally).  I'm going to see if I can get the gap a little smaller.

 
Your magnetic switch should be able  to gap up to about 3/8" so 3mm isn't a problem.
 
Troubleshooting a switch is pretty straight forward. First you need a way to read the state of the switch. You can do this with elkrp2 or m1togo software. Then open the door and hold a magnet up to the switch. If it closes then the switch is fine and your magnet placement is a problem. If it does not close when you place a magnet near it then there is a problem with either the switch or it's wiring back to the panel.
 
Then remove the switch and cross the wires attached to it. If the software shows the switch closed then replace the switch. If not then go to the panel and cross the switch wires where they attach to the panel. If your software still does not show the switch closed then you either have a problem with the panel or the software.
 
Good luck, Mike.
 
EDIT
 
I forgot that this is wireless.......I would put new batteries in the switch before spending any time troubleshooting,

 

[42etus]

I'm a little confused on your door sensor. Your first post says it's sunk into the door frame then your last says it's in the top corner of the door, farthest from the hinge. Not sure if you have the plunger type sensor or a magnetic reed type.  3mm shouldn't be any problem for the reed sensor, but could be an issue for some plungers. The plunger type do wear over time. Either way, try a new battery. Probably won't solve the intermittent problem, but it's simple and cheap to try.