2 wire smokes on Omni Pro II

[CollinR]

You probably want the 5601p as:
*No lettering
*Resettable RoR and hence easily testable

http://www.systemsensor.com/pdf/I56-2175.pdf
Page 3 Bottom Right Corner

Caution!
When using the RRS-MOD with model 2WTA-B, do
not mix the 2WTA-B with other model smoke detectors
and dry contact closure devices, including
mechanical heat detectors, manual pull stations and
waterflow switches. Such mixing can cause a direct
short on the auxiliary power terminals, damaging
the control panel’s internal circuitry and/or damage
devices connected to the initiating device circuit.

Sadly the RRS-MOD probably is something you need.
http://www.systemsensor.com/pdf/A05-0350.pdf

jlehnert is right any smoke trips and you should hear the tones throughout the house, I'm thinking the installer expected to use the sounder inside the smoke to cover this. I don't think it's going to work that way for him.



Now it is very well possible that they used 22-4 wire and put all the smokes on red/black and the thermals on green/white, this would be 2 zones inside 1 wire and should work with the RRS-MOD on the red/black.


Otherwise just get cheaper smokes and add more sirens, less current draw which should kill both concerns in one swoop.

 

[Lagerhead]

Sadly the RRS-MOD probably is something you need.
http://www.systemsensor.com/pdf/A05-0350.pdf

Collin, I am curous why you say this.

If the 2-wire zone includes the heat detectors (and apparently it is far better if it does not, they should instead be removed to their own zone), then when they close, it will dead short the zone (right?), prevent any zone power from reaching any of the detectors, and the result is a silent zone (a fire alarm is triggered, but without smoke sounders, all alarm sounds coming purely from sirens, etc.).

If on the other hand the purpose is to rely on the smoke sounders for the alarm sounds (which in an earlier post Paul said he does not want to do), for the above reason heat detection will fail to sound the smokes (no power to zone because shorted), again making a panel alarm the sole source of alarm sound. So polarity reversal via an RRS-MOD is mostly moot, and unnecessary.

In Paul's scenario, he will rely on his sirens as the main alarm, and have the smoke sounder (the one that is triggered) only as extra noise.

What am I missing? Probably I misunderstand the signalling from the smokes and the heat detectors to the zone.

Dave

 

[CollinR]

Not disagreeing with anything you are saying but I suggest that he verify that anything he plans on doing will be acceptable to the local AHJ. If he sells the house or wants to do a major renovation etc later he would not want to have a problem with the AHJ.

If on the other hand the purpose is to rely on the smoke sounders for the alarm sounds (which in an earlier post Paul said he does not want to do), for the above reason heat detection will fail to sound the smokes (no power to zone because shorted), again making a panel alarm the sole source of alarm sound. So polarity reversal via an RRS-MOD is mostly moot, and unnecessary.

In Paul's scenario, he will rely on his sirens as the main alarm, and have the smoke sounder (the one that is triggered) only as extra noise.

Digger is on it in that last sentence, I'm pretty sure the AHJ is going to want all the smokes to sound when any trip. This is the way normal line voltage smokes work and they have extra wiring just to ensure it. He will most likely need to emulate that functionality. The RSS-MOD allows for this even if you have 2 zones as it is looking for a pulsed output from the siren output (fire!).

 

[PaulD]

After additional investigation, discussions with my installer and email exchange with HAI Tech support, here is the outcome
- The Omni Pro II will function properly with the 2WTA-B unit which has an internal alarm in each unit. If any one unit sounds off, the Omni Pro II will react as programmed but it will not cause all the other alarms on the circuit to sound off. Since the Omni Pro II is a "system" style alarm panel, it uses the smokes as detectors only and uses the general sirens for alerts. To get all alarms to sound off requires a reversing unit which is not compatible with the Omni Pro II design for 2 wires.
- My local code does not require a sounder in each bedroom as I thought. However, it does require that any siren triggered by the Omni must be heard in each bedroom at an acceptable db level (not sure what that is yet). To avoid potential problems with different inspectors, my installer routinely installs smokes with internal alarms to insure adequate db levels in each bedroom. He normally installs DSC alarm panels so he was wiring my house to be compatible with DSC panels.

As a result, I think I have the following options
1) Attach the 2 wire alarm setup to my Omni and use them to drive general sirens. Was going to do that anyway but I do not have a siren in any bedroom to insure suitable db levels in each bedroom. If inspector is not satisfied with db levels from my general sirens, I will need to find a way to add more sirens in any weak db area. That will not be easy but I should be able to find a way.
2) Install a low end DSC alarm panel solely to drive the smokes and link it to my Omni somehow to capture the smoke alerts
3) Abandon my 2 wire and go with wireless units. Not my preference and I have not investigated wireless smokes yet so I am not sure what I would have to do to do this option. If anyone has any suggestions on wireless units to look at, let me known

 

[ano]

After additional investigation, discussions with my installer and email exchange with HAI Tech support, here is the outcome
- The Omni Pro II will function properly with the 2WTA-B unit which has an internal alarm in each unit. If any one unit sounds off, the Omni Pro II will react as programmed but it will not cause all the other alarms on the circuit to sound off. Since the Omni Pro II is a "system" style alarm panel, it uses the smokes as detectors only and uses the general sirens for alerts. To get all alarms to sound off requires a reversing unit which is not compatible with the Omni Pro II design for 2 wires.
- My local code does not require a sounder in each bedroom as I thought. However, it does require that any siren triggered by the Omni must be heard in each bedroom at an acceptable db level (not sure what that is yet). To avoid potential problems with different inspectors, my installer routinely installs smokes with internal alarms to insure adequate db levels in each bedroom. He normally installs DSC alarm panels so he was wiring my house to be compatible with DSC panels.

As a result, I think I have the following options
1) Attach the 2 wire alarm setup to my Omni and use them to drive general sirens. Was going to do that anyway but I do not have a siren in any bedroom to insure suitable db levels in each bedroom. If inspector is not satisfied with db levels from my general sirens, I will need to find a way to add more sirens in any weak db area. That will not be easy but I should be able to find a way.
2) Install a low end DSC alarm panel solely to drive the smokes and link it to my Omni somehow to capture the smoke alerts
3) Abandon my 2 wire and go with wireless units. Not my preference and I have not investigated wireless smokes yet so I am not sure what I would have to do to do this option. If anyone has any suggestions on wireless units to look at, let me known

That sounds like a solution, but here is some more to think about. Typically 120V smokes are ionization type. These react to fire fast, and all smokes are interconnected and sound together. There is a battery in each for backup. These will meet the code for sounders. Code USUALLY doesn't allow these smokes to be photoelectric, they must be ionization types. AND most local codes DO NOT allow monitored ionization type sensors to be connected to a MONITORED ALARM that notifies the local fire department. This is because these types of alarms can produce false alarms.

A monitored panel is just the opposite. These sensors are usually photoelectric type sensors, which are less likely to produce false alarms, so these are typically the ONLY type allowed on monitored panels. SO, to USUALLY meet all the codes, you need BOTH systems in place. 120V interconnected ionization smokes with individual alarms AND as an option, a monitored panel with photoelectric smokes. If your panel is not monitored, then the type of smokes is usually up to you. Of course, your local codes may vary.

 

[PaulD]

That sounds like a solution, but here is some more to think about. Typically 120V smokes are ionization type. These react to fire fast, and all smokes are interconnected and sound together. There is a battery in each for backup. These will meet the code for sounders. Code USUALLY doesn't allow these smokes to be photoelectric, they must be ionization types. AND most local codes DO NOT allow monitored ionization type sensors to be connected to a MONITORED ALARM that notifies the local fire department. This is because these types of alarms can produce false alarms.

A monitored panel is just the opposite. These sensors are usually photoelectric type sensors, which are less likely to produce false alarms, so these are typically the ONLY type allowed on monitored panels. SO, to USUALLY meet all the codes, you need BOTH systems in place. 120V interconnected ionization smokes with individual alarms AND as an option, a monitored panel with photoelectric smokes. If your panel is not monitored, then the type of smokes is usually up to you. Of course, your local codes may vary.

Appreciate the info but I don't think we are on the same page. As noted earlier, my loop is 2 wire 12VDC (not 120V), has no battery backup involved (all power including backup capacity comes from panel) and they are monitored by the panel (HAI Omni Pro II) which can make outbound calls to any number I tell it to. The dectector (System Sensor 2WT-B)is a photoelectric/thermal and is listed to be used with this panel.

 

[ano]

That sounds like a solution, but here is some more to think about. Typically 120V smokes are ionization type. These react to fire fast, and all smokes are interconnected and sound together. There is a battery in each for backup. These will meet the code for sounders. Code USUALLY doesn't allow these smokes to be photoelectric, they must be ionization types. AND most local codes DO NOT allow monitored ionization type sensors to be connected to a MONITORED ALARM that notifies the local fire department. This is because these types of alarms can produce false alarms.

A monitored panel is just the opposite. These sensors are usually photoelectric type sensors, which are less likely to produce false alarms, so these are typically the ONLY type allowed on monitored panels. SO, to USUALLY meet all the codes, you need BOTH systems in place. 120V interconnected ionization smokes with individual alarms AND as an option, a monitored panel with photoelectric smokes. If your panel is not monitored, then the type of smokes is usually up to you. Of course, your local codes may vary.

Appreciate the info but I don't think we are on the same page. As noted earlier, my loop is 2 wire 12VDC (not 120V), has no battery backup involved (all power including backup capacity comes from panel) and they are monitored by the panel (HAI Omni Pro II) which can make outbound calls to any number I tell it to. The dectector (System Sensor 2WT-B)is a photoelectric/thermal and is listed to be used with this panel.

Most codes require an interconnected, 120V powered, battery backed up ionization type smokes with sounders in each unit. You are welcome to put in a panel (or two), with smokes containing sounders, but the inspector is going to ignore that system and it has no part in meeting the code. At least if this is a residence. If its a commercial building, different rules apply.

 

[CollinR]

So/so ano, I have never had one pull the technology like that.

The all sirens must sound at the same time and must have battery backup I'm with ya. Paul I'm thinking this may well bite you in the @$$ (er well whomever you paid to design it). Luckily for you the designer is at fault and you can come back on them to fix it. Which would be 2 circuits and the RSS-MOD.

Keep in mind the OMI is powered by 120v and has backup power. If properly designed a system can sound all for one on these smokes. Yes some inspectors want to see line voltage smokes (that have an internal transformer) I have never heard of one mentioning ionization vs. photoelectric as being an issue. I think everyone knows ionization smokes suck.

Paul your installer is mixing retrofit with new construction codes. Retrofit you can have multiple sirens driven by the panel assuming the audiable level is met. New construction... I don't think it'll fly, each smoke should sound when any are tripped.

 

[ano]

Really in the end, the safest thing to do is run it by the inspector for the location that you are in. Tell them what your planning, and get their opinion. Also get the name of the person you spoke with. Then, if when inspection times comes, and THAT inspector thinks differently than the one you spoke with, you will have some pull. Different inspectors definitely interpret the same code differently. This will save you hassle and money in the long-run. In most areas, the codes for new residential construction are pretty specific when it comes to fire alarm systems, and you don't have that much flexibility.

 

[dutchyn]

A thought -- something I'm planning for my fireplaces -- why not have the alarm wire from your independent smoke system also connect via (say an ELK 924) to one of your HAI input zones. Then the HAI can monitor the smoke detector status, even if it can't control it.

 

[PaulD]

Really in the end, the safest thing to do is run it by the inspector for the location that you are in. Tell them what your planning, and get their opinion. Also get the name of the person you spoke with. Then, if when inspection times comes, and THAT inspector thinks differently than the one you spoke with, you will have some pull. Different inspectors definitely interpret the same code differently. This will save you hassle and money in the long-run. In most areas, the codes for new residential construction are pretty specific when it comes to fire alarm systems, and you don't have that much flexibility.

Well, I talked to the inspector in my area and had an interesting discussion. When I asked the question, she responded with a statement that I would need a smoke alarm with sounder in each sleeping area as well as adjacent hallways which set off all alarms if any one was triggered. When I questioned her further on why that is required since I understood that the requirement was to HEAR an alarm in each sleeping area but not necessarily have an actual device in each area. She said the ruling code was NSFP 72 and pulled out the book to check the language. She discovered that it DID NOT require an alarm in each sleeping area but did require that an alarm must be sounded if any smoke detector was triggered and that the alarm must be heard in each sleeping area under worst case condition (every intervening door between bedroom and sounder was closed). She explained that it was common practice with installers to put linked smoke alarms in every area as a way to insure that code was met thus many people (including her) make an assumption that every room must have an alarm.

She did say that it would help if I was there when the inspection was done and have any paperwork handy that validates that my installation meets NSFP 72 requirements. I have checked the installation and user manual for the Omni Pro II and have not found any language that states the Omni Pro II itself meets NSFP 72 code. I have sumbitted an inquiry to HAI asking about that point in case I need it during the inspection.

That appears to leave me with 2 challenges..
1) Convince the inspector that actually does the inspection that everything is up to code even though he may not be familiar with the Omni Pro II
2) Hope that the single interior sounder current installed is sufficient to cover all bedrooms. It is located at top of stairs near the upstairs bedroom so I am sure the upstairs will be OK. However, I am not sure it will be sufficiently loud to meet code in the single downstairs bedrooom (bottom of stairs). If the downstairs beedroom is a problem, I will need to locate another sounder in the area somewhere and that will be a challange now that the walls are closed up and painted. I have heard that some inspectors use a db meter.

I tried to locate a copy of the NSFP 72 code book on the web and discovered that prices start at $50 to buy one. I don't need the entire book...just the part that applies to residential applications. If anyone knows where I can get a free copy of that portion of the book, I would like to know about it. I may need to quote fromt the book to support my case since it appears that inspectors do not necessarily know all the language.

The saga continues. Hopefully others will learn from my troubles.