An Elk system on a budget?

[mjara]

Hi everyone,

First some background. (Skip this paragraph if you don't care. My house was burglarized a couple of weeks back, and since then I have spent a lot of time browsing the web for the burglar alarm that best suits me. I almost chose not to buy an alarm, because I will be installing security doors and window bars in the vulnerable areas of the house as a first step. But I've decided that I really want 1. a simple *wireless* burglar alarm and 2. a degree of home automation, so that it looks like I'm home when I'm not. After marveling at the "amazing" x10.com alarm systems that provide the "capability" of 1-button disarm, looking heavily into trying to build my own system using a PC and z-wave devices, and reading a lot of forums, I've more or less concluded that the Elk M1 is the best system for my needs. But I'm still a complete burglar-alarm-newby, so any advice (or redirection to where an identical question is answered) would be appreciated.

The Elk M1 is expensive, so I'm hoping someone can tell me if my "budget" idea is feasible:

1. Console: Elk M1EZ8: $165 at www.internet-security-inc.com
(I can't tell if this comes with the keypad in the picture.)
2. Battery: Elk 1280: $20-$30 various places
3. Notifications: Two-way listen-in interface: $53.96 at SmartHomeUSA.com
(I just want the system to call me when the alarm trips. Do I need this?)
4. Siren: Elk SS36 (or similar): $5-$20
(It seems like the Elk had a siren output... I don't need to buy the separate siren driver board, do I?)

Now here's where this gets a little like putting ketchup on your caviar...

5. X10 RF interface: W800RF32: $70 or so, various places
(I think this will work directly with the Elk, without having to use a PC. Am I right?)
6. Elk Main Serial Interface: $42 tech-home.com
(I think I need this to use the W800RF32, right?)
7. PIR sensors: x10.com RF units: 7 for $50 at x10.com (wow that's cheap)
(Can I get the Elk to monitor these?)

If I'm not missing something, this would give me a complete system with lots of sensors for a little over $400. I would then potentially add things like a z-wave board for lighting control, and an ethernet board for pc-based monitoring.

Advice? Does this sound reasonable? Am I missing any components? (It's hard to tell what the Elk does out of the box and what you have to buy.) Any alternative suggestions? I've also looked at a DSC system, the GE Concord 4 and Simon, Visonic Powermax Plus, and a couple of others, but integration options seem more limited, and the motion sensors are always $50-$100 each.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[123]

The M1's a good choice. There are resellers who participate, and advertise, on Cocoontech. Give them a call and see who can provide you with the best combination of service, support, and price. They can probably make a great package deal that will save you time and money.

If you're serious about security, you should reconsider your choice of motion detectors.

 

[jwilson56]

Yes much better to hard wire some motion sensors into the Elk. Automated Outlet has some very nice ones for under $20.

 

[mjara]

Thanks for the input, guys.

I really wish I could install wired sensors, because it would be a lot cheaper. Unfortunately, I have a one-story house with no attic, meaning I would have some serious drywall repair afterwards. (I have previously installed my own light fixtures, which involved a lot of cutting, drilling, fishing, cursing... and I'm not eager to repeat that throughout the length of the house.)

I understand that the x10 sensors are cheap, but I don't understand in what way. Do they break? Register false positives or negatives?

I need a minimum of four motion sensors, five is good, and seven gives me a couple to play with. Contact sensors aren't very useful to me, because my windows open two ways, requiring two sets per window. And glass-break sensors are as expensive as PIR sensors.

Any advice on my list of modules?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[jwilson56]

Well I use the NX-650 wireless sensor for all my doors and windows as I also live in a house that would be a nightmare to wire. I use the Elk M1XRF2G Receiver and so far it has worked flawlessly. Please do not try to use X10 for security as you will find it not so stable.

Check out my showcase to see my GUI interface for my Elk

 

[tmbrown97]

I think the key is to understand your budget. Us with true M1's spent $2-3K, but make that up by not paying ADT $45/month. If you're truely looking for a $300 system, we need to know that up-front so people with that experience can chime in.

 

[electron]

The problem with the X10 motion sensors (assuming you are talking about the regular X10 units) is that they aren't meant for real security use. The M1/W800RF32 combo doesn't support any X10-RF security features anyways. They don't report in on a regular basis, they don't have a 'low battery' warning, etc. If you really can't afford the Elk M1 based platform, then I would recommend something like the Vista 20-P. They offer a wireless kit, is very affordable, and has some nice options.

If you really do want an M1 platform, then I suggest doing it the right away. I recommend you contact a vendor with a good reputation here, and work something out with them, instead of ordering parts from all over the place.

 

[WayneW]

The problem with the X10 motion sensors (assuming you are talking about the regular X10 units) is that they aren't meant for real security use. They don't report in on a regular basis, they don't have a 'low battery' warning, etc.

Just to clarify Dan's post, (since X10 ads are confusing) I THINK the X10 MS10A security motion sensor can report hourly and can report low battery, IF you are using an X10 receiver system that supports such things (maybe HomeSeer & the W800 supports them also). But the Elk and the W800 do not support these status reports, so you are essentially using an unsupervised wireless system. So, if you are using a W800 and M1, you might as well get the smaller, dumber, cheaper X10 ActiveEye/HawkEye type sensors. Elk supports 2 RF receivers and Caddx RF motion sensors very nicely, but they are significantly more expensive than X10 stuff, and worth it, IMHO.

 

[Kevin L]

I almost chose not to buy an alarm, because I will be installing security doors and window bars in the vulnerable areas of the house as a first step.

I'll let the more experienced answer most of the questions, as I've only had my M1G setup operating for a couple of months. As an insurance agent for 30+ years, I'll caution you about the window bars. Each state is different, but in Florida, many of the insurance companies I represent will not write a home with security bars. I'd hate to see you go through the expense of installing these bars and then not be able to get affordable insurance.

Good luck,

Kevin

 

[sic0048]

I was also going to mention about security bars. They do a good job of keeping people out, but that is a double edge sword as it prevents people from getting out in an emergency too.

I also agree with the other posters that if money is a concern, there are plenty of other great security systems out there that only do security and are therefore much less expensive than an ELK M1. Also, if you want to go wireless, go with a professional wireless security system, not the X10 crap.

So I'm pretty much agreeing with everything that has already been said.

 

[broconne]

I think the key is to understand your budget. Us with true M1's spent $2-3K, but make that up by not paying ADT $45/month. If you're truely looking for a $300 system, we need to know that up-front so people with that experience can chime in.

I am looking at putting together an M1 system on a new house I am going to start building soon.
Can you give me the cost breakdown for the $2-$3k? That was a lot more than I was expecting based on the prices I had seen. So, obviously, I am missing something huge here.

 

[mjara]

Thanks for all the great advice. I'll drop the idea of using the cheap x10 sensors.

To address a few things:

>> Do I want a $300 system?

Well, yes and no. I want a burglar alarm that 1. can use wireless sensors, 2. will call me if the alarm trips, and 3. I can use to program lamps and other devices to turn on and off when I'm not home.

As for 1 and 2, those seem to be built into even cheap burglar alarms. Item 3 is harder, though it seems that a lot of system can use an x10 modulating transformer to do this. I was actually hoping to avoid using x10 on my electrical wires unless it's my only choice. My ideal #3 solution would be a z-wave adapter (like the Elk one) or an ethernet adapter, so that I could just install some software on my HTPC and have the PC handle the home automation... The key there is that the PC has to get a cue from the alarm system to know that I'm not home.

So, I want the quickest/cheapest route to #1 and #2, with the capability for #3. If I spend $2000 over the course of the next couple of years adding gizmos, so be it. But upfront, I'm trying to keep the shock-factor down by being cheap.

The DSC 1832 looks great, except there seems to be no real home automation capability or gateway. The Concord 4 looks like a cheaper Elk, but will limit me to x10 for home automation.

I'm starting to think I may just have to bite the bullet and spend the big bucks. Though the ebay suggestion I got from jwilson56 is a good idea for trying to get cheaper sensors. (Thanks!)

Alternative recommendations?

>> Regarding vendors: I'll make some queries. That would probably be a good idea, since I don't really know what modules I need to make a working system, though I'm sure I could install it myself if I have all the parts.

>> Regarding security bars: I know they have systems with built-in fire-escapes. (Undo a latch inside the house, and the bars hinge outward.) These bars are actually very common in my city (Tucson), presumably because the burglary rate is pretty high. Thanks for the tip though, I will check with my insurance agent before putting anything in.

 

[tmbrown97]

Can you give me the cost breakdown for the $2-$3k? That was a lot more than I was expecting based on the prices I had seen.

The base system isn't bad, but it's putting it all together... Here's some rough numbers. Also, I get dealer pricing on a lot of these, so I'll try to convert to AO's prices for a good example:

LV Installer - Just for wiring, no hookup or elk programming
$500 - 7 hours labor, included 4 door sensors and all wire (House was previously wired so windows already covered but had new doors)

Base System:
$650 - Elk M1GSYS4S - System w/14" box and 1 keypad, transformer, battery, speaker (that I'm not using), RJ31X jack
$260 - 2 additional KP2 keypads
$ 95 - 28" Cabinet for Elk (14" was too small - used it in garage for other expanders instead)
$ 25 - Surge protected outlet for inside the cabinet
$ 15 - 3 Flush mount boxes for the KP2 Keypad
$215 - M1XEP Ethernet Interface
$ 85 - 16-Zone Input Expander
$150 - ElkRM Software
$165 - 2 M1XSP Serial Interfaces (UPB, Thermostat)
$160 - 4 Rokonet motion sensors - Pet Immune/Dual technology
$ 28 - 2 GE Screamers
$ 33 - 5 ElkSP12F Speakers - Single gang box or fits behind keypad (KP2 has no built-in speaker)
$ 40 - Data Bus Hub
$ 50 - Glass Break Detector
$ 35 - GE 2-Wire Smoke Detector
$ 45 - Doorbell/Ring detector (only used the doorbell, not the ring detectors)
$ 50 - Various Elk mounting plates
$ 35 - Strobe with wall-mount kit
$ 50 - 2 Garage Door contact sensors


Thermostat
$150 - RC100B HAI Thermostat (M1XEP Included above)

Sprinkler and Garage Door Control:
$ 12 - 24VAC Transformer
$110 - M1XOVR Output Expander
$ 57 - Relay Board (plug into M1XOVR to get 16 total relays outputs (10-zone sprinkler system)
$--- - Included with original system kit - 14" mounting box


Other:
$ 71 - M1XTSR Temperature Sensor with remote probe
$ 71 - Elk129 Computer Interface for Recordables (for Elk124)
$143 - Elk124 - 8-Channel Voice Annunciator Module (for custom sounds ouside of what Elk can handle, like doorbell)


That's about $3,300 total (And I'm wishing I hadn't just done that - don't ever let my wife see this page!!!) - I also haven't gotten far with my UPB yet, but that's going to add about another $1,500 all said & done. And I know I missed a few things.

Of course, this is a pretty full install - many don't need 3 keypads, pet-immune motions, glassbreaks, etc

Don't let that scare you though - you can start out small and add things as you get around to it - My first order was $800 and had a lot of the basics - but I placed 2 more in the next 30-days that did all the damage... just depends on how much you're getting into it. I also use the Elk exclusively for my home control currently - no addons... other than the eKeyPad+ for the iPhone to control the elk.

The other thing that helped me convince myself is that when I move, I'll strip it down to an EZ8 and take the good stuff with me unless there's something much newer and better - next homeowner won't need all the stuff I liked to play with.

 

[jlehnert]

3. Notifications: Two-way listen-in interface: $53.96 at SmartHomeUSA.com
(I just want the system to call me when the alarm trips. Do I need this?)

No, you do not need the listen-in interface.

 

[broconne]

Can you give me the cost breakdown for the $2-$3k? That was a lot more than I was expecting based on the prices I had seen.

The base system isn't bad, but it's putting it all together... Here's some rough numbers. Also, I get dealer pricing on a lot of these, so I'll try to convert to AO's prices for a good example:

LV Installer - Just for wiring, no hookup or elk programming
$500 - 7 hours labor, included 4 door sensors and all wire (House was previously wired so windows already covered but had new doors)

Base System:
$650 - Elk M1GSYS4S - System w/14" box and 1 keypad, transformer, battery, speaker (that I'm not using), RJ31X jack
$260 - 2 additional KP2 keypads
$ 95 - 28" Cabinet for Elk (14" was too small - used it in garage for other expanders instead)
$ 25 - Surge protected outlet for inside the cabinet
$ 15 - 3 Flush mount boxes for the KP2 Keypad
$215 - M1XEP Ethernet Interface
$ 85 - 16-Zone Input Expander
$150 - ElkRM Software
$165 - 2 M1XSP Serial Interfaces (UPB, Thermostat)
$160 - 4 Rokonet motion sensors - Pet Immune/Dual technology
$ 28 - 2 GE Screamers
$ 33 - 5 ElkSP12F Speakers - Single gang box or fits behind keypad (KP2 has no built-in speaker)
$ 40 - Data Bus Hub
$ 50 - Glass Break Detector
$ 35 - GE 2-Wire Smoke Detector
$ 45 - Doorbell/Ring detector (only used the doorbell, not the ring detectors)
$ 50 - Various Elk mounting plates
$ 35 - Strobe with wall-mount kit
$ 50 - 2 Garage Door contact sensors


Thermostat
$150 - RC100B HAI Thermostat (M1XEP Included above)

Sprinkler and Garage Door Control:
$ 12 - 24VAC Transformer
$110 - M1XOVR Output Expander
$ 57 - Relay Board (plug into M1XOVR to get 16 total relays outputs (10-zone sprinkler system)
$--- - Included with original system kit - 14" mounting box


Other:
$ 71 - M1XTSR Temperature Sensor with remote probe
$ 71 - Elk129 Computer Interface for Recordables (for Elk124)
$143 - Elk124 - 8-Channel Voice Annunciator Module (for custom sounds ouside of what Elk can handle, like doorbell)


That's about $3,300 total (And I'm wishing I hadn't just done that - don't ever let my wife see this page!!!) - I also haven't gotten far with my UPB yet, but that's going to add about another $1,500 all said & done. And I know I missed a few things.

Of course, this is a pretty full install - many don't need 3 keypads, pet-immune motions, glassbreaks, etc

Don't let that scare you though - you can start out small and add things as you get around to it - My first order was $800 and had a lot of the basics - but I placed 2 more in the next 30-days that did all the damage... just depends on how much you're getting into it. I also use the Elk exclusively for my home control currently - no addons... other than the eKeyPad+ for the iPhone to control the elk.

The other thing that helped me convince myself is that when I move, I'll strip it down to an EZ8 and take the good stuff with me unless there's something much newer and better - next homeowner won't need all the stuff I liked to play with.

Thanks for the breakdown - that included a lot of items. My goal here is to wire for everything I can now and install all the keypads, elk systems later, once I recover from the shock of paying for this house