Another what should I buy? (but with all the information)

[Bartfriend]

I have been reading for a while and just registered for this community. And now it is my turn to ask the obligitory "what is better/what should I buy" question. Here is my info I am sure that I missed something.


Security is a priority, I would also like some home automation features as well. Expandability and ease of use is important. I am a electrician so the wiring will not be an issue. Some sensors will need to be wireless due to vaulted ceilings and not wanting to punch holes in all of my walls. Also there is a granny flat that will have to be controlled and alarmed separately through the same system so I can monitor that as well.

Here is some info on the house

2500 sqft home including a granny flat
11 windows (4 wireless)
6 exterior doors (1 wireless)
2 sliding glass doors (both wireless)
garage door

Some of the things i would like to integrate.
Smoke/CO2 sensor
Exterior lights on motions
video surveillance for the exterior, 2 cameras
iphone compatibility to view cameras/get alerts from alarm.
Network access/control/monitoring

should I get...
glass break sensors inside?
motion sensor inside?

Is it possible to..
add camera for baby room and use iphone as baby monitor? sounds goofy but if i can save a couple of hundred on a baby monitor then it is more money for this system.
pool/spa integration? pentair intellitouch system currently installed


Ohh yeah I guess we need to talk about price point. I don't even know where to start with pricing lets say $1000? If that is totally unreasonable we could go as high as $2000.

Thanks in advance.

-b

 

[electron]

hi Bartfriend, welcome to CocoonTech!

I would focus on both the HAI OmniPro II and the ELK M1 as the core of your system, as both are very expandable, and have all sorts of clients (including iOS and Android). They are also the most popular systems in this community, so finding help is pretty easy

 

[sic0048]

I agree with Dan if you want to add some automation capacity to the system. Either system works really well as a security system, but they are different from a simple alarm because they have the automation portions.

Honestly many people use those systems on this forum and both are equally happy with their units. I have an ELK and have been very happy with it. However, I also have it integrated into a larger home automation system (CQC). I think HAI has been adding more features recently and would probably recommend it over the ELK for a stand alone system that isn't going to be tied into a larger system. I think the HAI offers slightly more variety when it comes to the number of devices you can add to it and control with it.

 

[Bartfriend]

Thank you guys for the suggestions. I will look in to the Elk and HAI for the main system. Now if I go with a specific brand is it better to use elk devices if I have a elk board?

As far as components go are there brands I should stay away from or I should look for? wired and wireless. Are there some things that are considered a MUST to be wired?

HA control: I understand that there is wireless or wired or I have seen some that communicate on the line voltage. Are there pros and cons to the different ways these devices communicate and what would be the BEST type to use

Do these manufactures have starter kits to get me going in the right direction? Or is that something I need to work out a vendor?

Cameras are they worth it? Should they be integrated in to the panel or should i just pick up a kit from costco that has the cameras and the DVR?

I know it is a lot of questions but I want to start on the right foot and learn from your experiences. Thanks for your help.
-b

 

[Frunple]

Come on, No ones gonna point out his price point???

Just so you know b, either the HAI or Elk will go over your 2nd price ($2g's) alone! Including consoles I mean.
Be prepared to spend and spend and spend. But I guarantee your gonna love doing it! It's very addicting trying to figure out the next thing to automate, mine is a flag pole. Trying to find maybe an rss feed or similar to determine half/full mast times, then tie that into some kinda motor on the halyard???
Anyway, thats my project not yours. You'll find many of your own.
BYW, I went with the Omni Pro II and couldn't be happier! Especially with Elve as a "front end" for it.
Congrat, ahead of time, on either system you choose. I don't think you can go wrong with either, and have fun with it!!

 

[Bartfriend]

Thanks Frunple for letting me know about the $$$ I have sent a few e-mails to some of the preferred vendors on the site and I am waiting to hear back to see where we are at as far as price.

What do you mean by "Especially with Elve as a "front end" for it."

 

[tmbrown97]

I think you can reasonably get into a security system and some basic control within your price range... the places that will completely blow your budget are lighting controls, wireless security contacts, and cameras.

As far as your question about what needs to be wired - honestly, security is the big one - if there's any way possible, wire that... wired contacts cost about $3; wireless cost about $35. That adds up extremely quickly... and not to mention, wired contacts and motions are way better for automation.

I personally went Elk and Simply Automated's UPB (see my signature for a link with lots of info about them). Both are extremely supportive companies and are great with the DIY market. HAI has recently come around but I haven't worked with them personally; HAI has more all-in-one offerings, but both systems work with all the industry standard systems. There are starter kits for UPB and for the security systems that have a lot of the basics in a package.

 

[Frunple]

Thanks Frunple for letting me know about the $$$ I have sent a few e-mails to some of the preferred vendors on the site and I am waiting to hear back to see where we are at as far as price.

What do you mean by "Especially with Elve as a "front end" for it."

Well, how do you plan on interacting with your system? You're gonna need some type of front end that let's you interact with the backend (ha system).
HAI has a lot of options, most are pretty plain, like snaplink, but it works. Theres a lot of options you'll find on here, I went with Elve. It's the newest of the bunch and is coming along pretty good.
I made a "Windows Media Center" based UI. You can check out my lighting control HERE. It'll give you an idea of my screens.

 

[gogrixdale]

You are me three months ago.

My job is a 2500 SF Tudor Revival circa 1925.

I went M1Gold because my money was short and the documentation was good. My budget? <$1000 to start, I just wanted simple enough security to get off the Brinks (Broadview) teat. Had it all priced and ready to go. 2 PIR(Motions), ELK M1 Gold M1GSYS4. I even had a plan to add all the cool things later.

Yhea, Right!

Problem is that “later” was the second day after my first shipment arrived. I’m sure everyone here sighed deeply when they read Frunple’s comment.

I found myself caught between asking, “I wonder …could it?” and someone here already answering that “…it can and here’s how”. I had to see it for myself. 3 months later I’m definitely 3X over my original budget numbers. Seriously, I’ve stopped counting. :blink:

But don’t let that stop you. Join us. …one-of-us …one-of-us …one-of-us

My sophomore’s suggestion is “plan your wire and buy your wire first”. You’re looking at a few hundred dollars in wire alone. Buy wire for everything you think you may want your new toy (ahem) to control. Pre-wiring will also lead you to the questions only you can answer (said in my best Yoda voice). And please believe me, “ you only want to pull wire once”, especially in a retrofit.

Also “start you security at the perimeter” was some of the best advice I got.

Oh and don’t even go near software (CQC, Elve, Homeseer) until you have a good, working, hands on understanding of your controller.

Now that you’re here, you will never be happy until you try this. ...go buy something, you'll feel better.


gG

 

[Bartfriend]

Frunple, I think I need to make Security my main priority, I do want to mess around with HA later down the road but for right now I just need to get the security up and running.

Looks like I will be waiting on the cameras un-till I have a secure home.

gG thank you for sharing that you were once in my boat. And the advice on the wire. Is there a basic wire lay out for devices? I know some are 4 wire some are 2 wire some are cat5, and what gauge wire 22, 18? Is there a basic rule of thumb? Or do I just need to decide on devices and see what they require?

Are there better brands of devices thank others for door/window wired/wireless switches?

Thanks again
-b

 

[TheEther]

On the wiring question, there's no real hard and fast rule. Depending on the length of the runs, one could probably squeak by with CAT5e/6 for almost all of it, and some guys have done that. But it's thicker cable, and would be more difficult to work with unless you're doing new construction or you're highly masochistic..

I have an ELK system, and used 22/4 for every NC/NO contact such has Door/Window/Moisture. I used 18/2 for my speakers and sirens and CAT5e for all of my databus runs such as keypads and thermostats. I did send out a few extra runs of Cat5e to areas where I might want to expand but wasn't sure what I wanted to do yet, mainly because I was out of 22/4 at that point.

Just a side-tip.. If you do wired door contacts, DO NOT get 3/8" contacts for the wired contact. Get the 3/4" contacts with the 3/8 core then get 3/8's magnets. Doing ELOR on a 3/8 contact is a PITA.

TheEther..

 

[Frunple]

Even better, get the contacts with the EOL built in!

 

[Neurorad]

Does anyone know the length of cable where 22/2 or 22/4 would have a problem, for a wired contact, with the M1, because of voltage drop? At what length would 18/2 be appropriate?

Would an OPII be diffferent?

OP asked about wire gauge, 18 v. 22, and this has been in the back of my mind for quite some time.

 

[Del91574]

I wouldn't recommend getting contacts with EOLR's built in, way too many problems if you have a bad contact or need a replacement yesterday. Also complicates troubleshooting.

22 Awg is about 16 ohms/1000 feet. Figure a little higher for splices/contacts/devices and relays. Unpowered circuits are generally no issue, the problem lies with powering up a motion or similar at an extreme distance.

I'm a firm believer in a category cable being way too fragile for general alarm device wiring and also have seen many issues with that light of and AWG being nicked/crushed under terminals/screws and breaking off. Data bus for the Elk or RS 485 data would be the exception IMHO.