Baffeled buy the direction of HA

@Dean Roddey:

a 5 second poll time means there's the potential that because of a lost command, someone could hit "showtime" and the lights won't dim for over 5 seconds. I guess that's my point. As I stated earlier, bad devices will be uncovered when the system tries to command them and cannot. Or the user will try to command them locally and cannot. The" showtime" scene switch activation will be retried by the user in far less than 5 seconds. Everyone flips that switch a few times when the lights don't come on. This with "dumb" houses. I believe that "good enough" with self healing error tolerance is an effective design strategy that leverages the reliability of todays systems while giving me the flexibility to install into any house made. The nice thing about UPB is that this philosophy is built in. UPB is designed to operate very effectively without a controller of any kind.
 
I can't entirely agree with kwilcox that a once-a-day routine to set things right is good enough. We have something like the second highest utility prices in the nation and I have a lot of outdoor lights. If all my outdoor lights were to accidently get turned on during the day (about 35 bulbs including spots, lamp posts, porch lights, etc) even going a few hours before it was caught is pretty expensive. I know a noise induced ALL LIGHTS ON "never happens" with UPB or Insteon, but I remain skeptical.

Also to the point about low vs high bandwidth, besides simple scaling issues I can think of some good value in having room for some additional data. How about reporting the current draw of the load so you can detect a bulb failure or calculate energy use?
 
@upstatemike:

I completely agree that any "command on" mistake is bad. Extremely bad. This is something a HA system should never do and is the one thing that keeps me away from large installations. However I don't think that constant all device status is the answer since it should never happen to begin with. The protocol's tolerance for noise shoud be the focus for avoiding this situation IMO. UPB based controllers could detect this by examining unexpected device on commands and their acks. I haven't had a need to program for that yet, but its reassuring to know that I can if need arises.
 
a 5 second poll time means there's the potential that because of a lost command, someone could hit "showtime" and the lights won't dim for over 5 seconds. I guess that's my point. As I stated earlier, bad devices will be uncovered when the system tries to command them and cannot.

The latency issue really doesn't apply to outgoing commands. They'll do fine since they are proactive outgoing commands from the controller which will usually be acknowledged. The lights will dim immediately, or pretty close to that in most cases. It's the getting the status back part that's the issue. Generally, you won't bother to check a light to see if it's off before turning it on, you'll just turn it on.

Devices that take a long time to power up or down or which have consequences, you would want to check first, and there you have to deal with the latency issue, and be aware that you might not have absolutely up to the minute information. It would be very nice if you could, but that's up to the people who make the devices and the realities thereof. If someone makes a devices that has significant consequences if you turn it on or off when you shouldn't and that can only be polled once a minute, that's just a sucky device that you shouldn't buy.

But, in a fast wired network, it's generally not a problem to get quite snappy updates of status, even in a pure polling scenario in a large system. Even a high speed serial line can provide low status latency on a point to point basis if the protocol isn't really bad.

Z-Wave and UPB I'm sure can do well in smaller systems UPB probably considerably better as long as the notifications are working well. I'm using Z-Wave, which is a purely polled system, with just 6 devices, and the latecy is generally less than a second, becasue the driver does overlapped polling (i.e. it keeps more than one poll operation outstanding at once.) But in another customer's system, with like 16 to 20 modules, it's more like 10 seconds latency. That's also probably due to the fact that the Z-Wave network is straining a bit and not all modules are reliably responding the first time they are asked for status, and that slows things down.

It could probably be gotten down to closer to 5 with a more agressive polling strategy (which we'll be experimenting with) and some tweaking to make sure the mesh is all filled in nicely. And we'll also probably be adding the ability to prioritize modules so that some will be polled faster than others.

Outgoing commands are practically instantaneous in both our systems, so that's not an issue really. And since it's a polled system, you will always know within the polling latency time, if something has gone away.

That's not to say that Z-Wave's polling strategy is better than UPB's broadcast strategy. I wish Z-Wave did the same, because it really does help a lot. But it doesn't get the automation system out of the job of making the rounds and tapping on the doors to make sure everyone is safe and sound, and that does eat up bandwidth, which is pretty darned limited on the powerline. A littles less so on Z-Wave/Zigbee.

On an ethernet type system, you could run a very large home without problems using a pure polling strategy, or a a combination of status broadcast and a backup scheme of activie pinging, or both in a mixed environment. The driver just keeps a map of all known modules and every time a broadcast status or a reply to an active ping comes in, it marks that module's entry with a time stamp, and pushes it to the buttom of the list. So it can keep a list of who's being naughty and who's being nice. The guys on the top of the list are naughty and haven't been heard from lately and it can prioritize it's active pinging by working down the list all the time.

Protocols like xAP in fact depend completely on the fact that everyone is regularly sending out 'heartbeat' messages which don't say anything other than, "I'm here, don't worry" and "I'm here, if you are looking for me", so the automation system in that case, can be quite passive and only actively ping those things that have not sent their heartbeat message in the time frame they are supposed to. xAP is ethernet based, so it can afford that kind of overhead easily.
 
I'm going to address all the points in this thread together :)

1. In regards to the original question, yes the market needs simple, inexpensive, reliable devices. As just one example, the Intermatic HA06 dimmer light switch is a good start to this end. As volume goes up, prices should come down every farther.

2. In regards to protocols:
* Z-Wave is highly reliable, and scaled quite nicely. For devices that don't implement the automatic status updates provided in the Z-Wave protocol, they need to be polled. That's not preferred, but it's not too bad either.
* Zigbee, an "extension" of the IEEE 802.15.4 standard, has some promise. It seems like a VHS vs. Beta issue to me, but this time with Z-Wave being the more functional and _less_ expensive protocol (vs. Beta, which was better and _more_ expensive).
* Insteon looks like it has some promise. As it matures, it'll be fun to see it in the market space.
* UPB is slow, but home control doesn't need to be _blindingly_ fast. I hear that it's really reliable. Our first tests with it went horribly wrong on the ease of use side, but we also weren't following UPB's guidelines. It could turn out to be a great wired alternative, and it certainly has its fans.

3. I would _love_ to see a very inexpensive add-on in smart switches which could give current draw, etc. Something like the "Watts Up! Pro" embedded in every switch. That would be fantastic.

4. Overall, the most important factor in the reliability of any protocol is vendor implementation.
* Some of the early Z-Wave hardware was horrible (think of the early Sylvania lamp modules which blew out when you lamp did). Some of the newest ones are amazing.
* In the UPB world, I think they've been very particular about quality from all the vendors, so I think its reputation right now is pretty good.
* For X10, well, I don't need to address that now do I? :)

Chris
 
Z-Wave is highly reliable, and scaled quite nicely. For devices that don't implement the automatic status updates provided in the Z-Wave protocol, they need to be polled. That's not preferred, but it's not too bad either.

Are there any Z-Wave modules at this point that actually send notifications, I mean of the sort we'd care about here, switches, dimmers, outlets, etc...? I haven't looked to closely yet for how to (via the SDK) figure out if any of them will send status (and do just slow poinging on them instead of polling) since I wasn't aware of any that actually do.
 
Interesting stuff, this thread.... I'm not discounting the capabilities of wireless systems. I simply can't explain what it is that I distrust about them... this said while I'm writing this post on my WiFi connected laptop :) ...

Maybe what has impressed me the most about UPB is the high quality of the devices I've bought. Maybe I'm easily impressed by anything that's better than X10. Or maybe its because my HA software has added impressive support for UPB backed by the fact that they developed and support UPStart. This has made it easier for me to investigate the intricities of the UPB system. I suppose if HCA had instead added Z-Wave support I would have installed that and now would be a Z-Wave evangelest....

Hard to say, but it appears that speed and reliability are recurring themes in this thread and not too much has been said for the value of backwards compatability. In my case its irrelevant and in fact the lack of compatibility is advantageous since the new system cannot possibly interact with or affect the old. This because of my controller software and its ability to act as a bridge. This should be an interesting thing for the people at Smarthome to ponder I would imagine, since they designed Insteon to leverage an X10 investment without noticing the fact that adding Insteon devices could upset a delicately balanced X10 installation simply because Insteon devices can be x10 signal suckers just as 2way x10 devices are. Perhaps this therefore targets Insteon at the smaller X10 user.
 
Dean Roddey said:
Are there any Z-Wave modules at this point that actually send notifications, I mean of the sort we'd care about here, switches, dimmers, outlets, etc...?
My understanding is that anything that is "Lighting" must be polled, because sending notifications would violate a Lutron patent. Notifications are in the ZWave protocol, they just can't be used for lighting.
 
My understanding is that anything that is "Lighting" must be polled, because sending notifications would violate a Lutron patent. Notifications are in the ZWave protocol, they just can't be used for lighting.

I'm a VERY strong advocate of patents and copyright, and find our society's current lack of respect for IP content woeful, but that's pretty dang ignernt :) That's like patenting the concept of speaking first when you meet someone. It's not like it wasn't massively prior art by the Lutron came along. I mean how many devices since the beginning of electronics sent out some sort of signal when their state changed?

Geez...
 
I suppose if HCA had instead added Z-Wave support I would have installed that and now would be a Z-Wave evangelest....

Probably so :)

Now I'm certainly a pushy advocate for our product, but I'm utterly agnostic when it comes to hardware. We don't sell any hardware at this point, and even when we start it'll be the controlling, not the controlled, bits. We want to be free to say what we feel and give our customers an honest opinion. So I have no axe whatsoever to grind, or any laurels to ummm... laurelize, about anybody's hardware. Mostly hardware is the bane of my existence since I spend so much time futzing around trying to control it.

Definitely some companies are better than others to deal with, that's for sure. And some hardware is better than others IMO. But we don't have the luxury of telling people what to use. We have to support what they have, as best we can afford to.
 
In reviewing tcassio's original statement:

All a switch really needs is, reliablity, speed, be able to turn it on, off, dim, preset dim and a ramp rate, thats it, and sell it for $20

I have to add at least one additional requirement: It has to install in old houses as easily as it does in new ones.

Old houses usually don't have neutrals in the electrical boxes. Leviton commercial stand-alone motion sensors have relays and LEDs. They operate off HOT and GROUND and work great in retrofit situations. If a motion sensor can do it an automation switch can do it.

I also wonder about RF based systems in old houses. My pipes are copper (except sewer pipes which are cast iron), my electrical boxes are metal, my walls are plaster and lathe, and my chimneys are massive hunks of stonework. Can I really rely on an RF based system in this environment?

If economies of scale is truly the path to cheap switches, can manufacturers afford to design products that will not work in the retrofit market?

And even if additional features like "accurate status reporting" and "load current monitoring" can be added within the target price range, how will these be deployed in retrofit situations?
 
I also wonder about RF based systems in old houses. My pipes are copper (except sewer pipes which are cast iron), my electrical boxes are metal, my walls are plaster and lathe, and my chimneys are massive hunks of stonework. Can I really rely on an RF based system in this environment?

For Z-Wave/Zigbee anyway, they are mesh networks, not point to point. So they will route the signal through multiple other modules if a direct shot isn't possible. So as long as you have a reasonable density of modules, so that none are off in the distance by themselves with the big chimney right between it and the only near neighbor, you'd probably be fine. If the controller can't get a good signal to the module on the other side of the chimney, it can send to the module on the wall to the left which sends it on to the one on the far side of the chimney. At least in theory that's how it works, and it seems to.

A number of mine are stuck down in obsure corners, surrounded by fair chunks o' metal. I did though get a noticeable improvement by moving the controller module itself up onto the wall instead of down under the computer. That probably gave it a straight shot at more modules.
 
BTW, if anyone got the idea from all that that we won't support UPB, that's definitely not the case. We'll get on it as soon as we can. The more the merrier as far as we are concerned. As I said above, we have to adapt to whatever people have. As as long as you are happy with X, we are happy for you and will want to have you as a customer, so we'll support X if we can do it. We only sell product if we support what people have, so we're happy to support anything that we can manage to.

All of the above, from my perspective anyway, was just technical banter about the pros and cons of this or that technology. It had nothing to do with business. I would hope that we can engage in an honest discussion of technical merits of technologies without people taking it personally or seeing it as an attack on this or that product.
 
Somebody at Pulseworks (UPB) must be monitoring this thread :) - I received an email today that their prices are dropping! "Save over 50% with our new pricing!" This is good news :)
 
As I said above, we have adapt to whatever people have as as long as you are happy with X, we are happy for you and will want to have you as a customer and so we'll support X if we can do it.

This is great news since I am thinking of adopting a new backbone protocol based on the old BSR Ultrasonic Command Console. I plan to use my whole-house audio system to distribute commands throughout the house and will record the ultrasonic commands into wav files for computer control.

Besides the ultrasonic backbone protocol I plan to use infrared as a local "in room" control protocol as this will be instantly supported by learning remotes.

I feel this combination offers a much needed alternative to the Powerline and RF technologies already discussed.
 
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