Baffeled buy the direction of HA

TCassio

Active Member
I flat out don't understand the logic of all the New technology Manufactures (UPB, Insteon, Zwave). Why are they all bent on trying to build a controller into each switch and have to charge $75 per switch. If they want to sell a lot of equipment why not keep it simple. All a switch really needs is, reliablity, speed, be able to turn it on, off, dim, preset dim and a ramp rate, thats it, and sell it for $20. If you want the more complicated stuff then that should be handled by a stand alone controller or a PC based solution. Lets face it, the average home owner is not going to be able to install one of these UPB switches and utilize all the features. Heck they are hesitant to install an old style dimmer. The bulk of this equipment being sold is to Home Automation hobbiests, who are technically inclined, and the professional installers. If they want to sell product then keep it simple and keep it inexpensive. If they do the math they might understand. The average home can have anywhere from 50 to 150 switches installed in there home. To have an automated home, at least 50% of these switches should be controlable. So lets say one needs to install 75 switches. 75 * $75 = $5620. Who in there right mind is going to spend this kind of money on light switches. If they were $20 * 75 = $1500. I suspect they would sell a whole lot more product at a lower cost, and this is just for the technically inclined. If you keep it simple and inexpensive more average homeowners would consider installing them and sell more product.

All I want is a basic switch that is reliable with basice functions at a resonable price. :angry:
 
X-10 has the right price point but no reliability. UPB is rock solid but too expensive. Insteon and Z-Wave still have some issues to work through and are not cheap.

Ideal situation would be for UPB to become the standard and let economies of scale bring the price down. Maybe someone will make some cheaper UPB switches without interchangeable paddles and other extras.

As Dean pointed out, we need a basic "builder model" that is cheap enough for homebuilders to install in large numbers in tract homes to get this stuff into the mainstream.
 
I believe the UPB rationale is to keep traffic off the powerline which in and of itself doesn't have much bandwidth. Thus UPB's link paradigm. The implementation of the paradigm means storing link information in the switch itself, consequently allowing a single link command to create very complex behavior with almost no noticable lag. Of course, this also means that every UPB device needs to have a pretty good chunk of NVRAM on board thereby increasing the cost.

edit:

That being said, I would expect the SAI US1 switches to come down in price to around the $55-60 range soon. These are very popular switches and their current $70-75 retail price is a little steep IMO.
 
TCassio,
I will let you join me on MY HIGH HORSE calling for a good, reliable, reasonably priced lighting technology using simple addressing like X10 with its two rotary address switches.

If my wife can not install it, it is too hard for the average family to add a light switch to control the Christmas lights when needed. None of the new technologies pass the wife test except X-10.

I have heard comments from some installers that they want it hard so that the home owner will call them to make a change. Well they have gotten their wish so far. :huh: :angry:
 
On the other hand UPB has the potential to very simple indeed. Because the logic is in the switch and does not depend on a central controller, there is no reason a vendor couldn't sell switch sets that are already programmed to do commonly useful things. A homebuilder (or wife) could buy a complete pre-programmed switch set and just install the switch labeled "kitchen" in the kitchen, the one labeled "front hall" in the front hall, etc. And no complicated code wheels!
 
upstatemike said:
Ideal situation would be for UPB to become the standard and let economies of scale bring the price down.
Or Insteon. Or ZWave. Or ZigBee.

The economy of scale is the only thing that makes X10 cheaper. All the technologies, including X10, need a microcontroller, and the physical interfaces are all inexpensive. The extra functionality of the newer technologies is in the firmware, which is essentially free to reproduce, once it is developed. I believe the parts cost for Insteon, UPB, ZWave and ZigBee are all less than for X10, but they have yet to recoup their engineering costs or to generate production volumes comparable to X10.
 
All I want is a basic switch that is reliable with basice functions at a resonable price.

Amen.


I have heard comments from some installers that they want it hard so that the home owner will call them to make a change. Well they have gotten their wish so far.

Sometimes it seems that way... Then again, I suspect it might be a function of the engineers who design HA switches are gadget-freaks themselves. "But we've already come this far, it'd be so easy & cool to add feature X... "

Incremental costs of adding a feature look so small individually, but they do add up, especially when considering after-sale support.


I believe the parts cost for Insteon, UPB, ZWave and ZigBee are all less than for X10, but they have yet to recoup their engineering costs or to generate production volumes comparable to X10.

I doubt that. I suspect the production costs for X10 are quite a bit lower, due to the lack of precision manufacturing, ownership of manufacturing facilities, the economies of scale in buying parts, and the age of the technologies they must license. (Of course, falling into the trap of accepting low precision manufacturing is what dooms X10 wireless cams and their newest CM15a controller.)

Engineering costs are obviously a concern, as too are R&D on new products and promotion budgets to increase market share. (Recall that it was trying to shave money off promotions--by cheating the vendor--that drove X10 into bankruptcy.) Support has to be a major concern right now, due directly to the number of features in the newer devices. A simpler device with a reduced feature set might cost just as much to manufacture, but it will bring support costs down.

Tom
 
justonemore said:
I have 4 of these in use and have been in use for over 6 years. I always thought I would replace these but they keep going and going. So I personally would call these reliable. Considering they only cost $5.99 they are hard to beat for basic automation. Two of them are in my garage where the wear and tear is high but they still perform flawlessly. I've read were many users state they do not last and are cheap and I'll agree with that but mine continue to work. I have lost 4 Z-Wave switches and 2 switchlincs in the same time period so if you ask me they are very reliable.
 
I guess I should have been clear as to the reliablity. I have had some x10 stuff for years that still work. What I meant is the X10 protocol. Although, I must be blessed with a clean powerline and very few signal sucking devices in my home. Right now , my X10 system is working pretty darn reliabe.
 
TCassio ,
I'm with you. I have never needed a single filter and my X10 installation is nearly 100% reliable. Other than a coupler/repeater I've never needed another piece of hardware to make my X10 installation reliable. Call us luck I guess.
 
All my ws467 switches ran for about a year, then they all died within a week of each other, I definitely don't call that reliable, I know I am not the only one with that problem.
 
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