Battery choices

[chrisexv6]

Going to buy new batteries for my Elk setup now that its just about done.

I have all my smokes running off the main board, and per Elks UL listing (and common sense in general, I guess) I want it to run as long as possible. Any recommendations for 1 or 2 batteries, and what aH rating to get? I have the 28" can, there is a LOT of room for batteries but I wasnt sure if the Elk would have trouble with a high aH battery.

I also have an Altronix UL600 power supply in the enclosure it came with. What are my options there? The height and depth are pretty restricted because of the can, but I have about 12.5" of width to work with....can I get 2 batteries and parallel them? The Altronix manual only says 2 batteries are required for 24V use (Im running it at 12V).

And while we're at it, any recommendations on battery brands? Oddly enough I can get Yuasa batteries from Amazon in 2 days (prime shipping ftw!) at a decent price.

Thanks in advance.

-Chris

 

[tmbrown97]

Double check the Elk manual - it specifies the max AH it can charge. Where possible do this with a single battery; but it can also be accomplished using multiple batteries in parallel (for your altronix box). If you need more run time, you can also split items off and run them off a separate power supply and use an Elk supervised power supply that communicates with the M1.

IIRC, once fire comes into play you're supposed to have 24-hours of battery; someone can correct me if that's wrong.

 

[chrisexv6]

Double check the Elk manual - it specifies the max AH it can charge. Where possible do this with a single battery; but it can also be accomplished using multiple batteries in parallel (for your altronix box). If you need more run time, you can also split items off and run them off a separate power supply and use an Elk supervised power supply that communicates with the M1.

IIRC, once fire comes into play you're supposed to have 24-hours of battery; someone can correct me if that's wrong.

Elk has a list for "UL Approved" installations on their website. One of the items is for fire use, needs to have 24 hour backup capability. They recommend doing it with 2 8aH batteries in parallel. Oddly enough, in the actual M1G manual they recommend either 1 8aH or 1 18aH battery (they even specify the elk part numbers of 1280 or 12180). So it looks like the M1G can definitely handle a single 18aH battery....thats probably the max I would go anyway. That should give me plenty of backup for the smokes. On top of that, I have a UPS right next to the alarm that I could plug it into if need be. And on top of all that the circuit feeding the alarm is generator capable (I dont have an autoswitch generator, but I do have a portable with an transfer panel)

I wasnt sure if paralleling batteries would cause one to get drained more than the other, one not to receive enough charge, etc. If thats not an issue then I can probably get away with 2 7 or 8Ah batts in parallel for the Altronix. Incidentally, how is it that Elk can get 8AH out of the same size battery that everyone else only gets 7AH out of?

 

[video321]

I recently connected (2) 8aH batteries in parallel on my M1. I would have liked to use a single battery, but the large Elk ones don't fit in the can and I wasn't ready to go through the hassle of sourcing and purchasing a can deep enough to hold one. I have on-alarm devices (such as sirens) tapped off of it which are fused at the battery. I was also going to, but haven't yet, install a 2nd 5A fuse between the batteries and the panel itself even though they are located right beneath the panel. I figured an extra safety net wouldn't hurt. I'm not an expert on batteries, but from what I've learned with batteries in general is if one of the batteries dies the battery test would show it because the voltage would drop. There is the potential for it to reverse polarity and kill the other one with it, but I'm not worried about that - if one died I'd replace both anyway. When it comes time to replace what I have I will probably look to install a deep surface mounted can just for the battery or find a single slim quality battery that fits. I wouldn't worry too much about how it all works and just remember using (2) batteries with the M1 is UL listed so I'm sure everything is fine

Oh, and yes, the M1 is rated to handle up to 18aH - it's in the manual.

 

[chrisexv6]

I recently connected (2) 8aH batteries in parallel on my M1. I would have liked to use a single battery, but the large Elk ones don't fit in the can and I wasn't ready to go through the hassle of sourcing and purchasing a can deep enough to hold one. I have on-alarm devices (such as sirens) tapped off of it which are fused at the battery. I was also going to, but haven't yet, install a 2nd 5A fuse between the batteries and the panel itself even though they are located right beneath the panel. I figured an extra safety net wouldn't hurt. I'm not an expert on batteries, but from what I've learned with batteries in general is if one of the batteries dies the battery test would show it because the voltage would drop. There is the potential for it to reverse polarity and kill the other one with it, but I'm not worried about that - if one died I'd replace both anyway. When it comes time to replace what I have I will probably look to install a deep surface mounted can just for the battery or find a single slim quality battery that fits. I wouldn't worry too much about how it all works and just remember using (2) batteries with the M1 is UL listed so I'm sure everything is fine

Oh, and yes, the M1 is rated to handle up to 18aH - it's in the manual.

Which can do you have? The Elk 18aH battery will fit in the 28" can without issue. I thought the standard 14" can and the 28" had the same depth. The HEIGHT of the battery might be a concern with the 14" can, but the battery is only 3" "deep", the 8aH batteries are 2.65" deep, so its not really a huge difference.

 

[video321]

I have 2 14" cans and the depth is something like 2.75".

 

[Del91574]

7/8 aH batteries are cheaper and easier to source in comparison to a single, larger battery, also far more commonly used. Most Altronix supplies can fit a pair of 7/8 aH batteries, provided there's no knockouts being used on the bottom of the enclosure.

Generally, the limitation is space more so than the battery itself. an 18 aH battery is somewhat overkill, and in the case of multiple batteries in parallel, they should be a "matched" set, installed at the same time, preferably from the same lot, otherwise a push/pull can occur.

It's quite common to install a larger battery can if needed and extend/fuse the battery leads, as long as you receive the manufacturer's blessing, however the battery needs to be hard piped to the enclosure and located within the same room, which generally is not an issue for most residences.

 

[Teken]

As others have stated about matching and installing in pairs. Best practices, always apply a sticker of the install date of the battery. Also, many people rely too much on the on board computers so called *Load Test*. Again, best practices is to load test the alarm panel in a live situation once a month to ensure the expected run time will be available.

It goes with out saying calling the monitoring station during these service checks is paramount. At the end of the day its validation of the system and truly knowing that the system will perform as expected, and not hoping it will!

Because *Hope Don't Float* . . .

Teken . . .

 

[Nolarola]

I have a UPS right next to the alarm that I could plug it into if need be.

Why not just plug it in a UPS all the time?

 

[chrisexv6]

I'll have other stuff plugged into the same ups so I can't guarantee at least 24 hours runtime on the alarm portion.

 

[tmbrown97]

Direct batteries are much more efficient in this type of scenario over a UPS that converts 12V back to 120VAC, then through a 16VAC transformer, then back down to 12VDC. There's all the other electronics the UPS has to drive, including that loud buzzer and the inverter itself, and often a fan... there's just no way for it to ever compete with a direct battery connection that's sized appropriately.

 

[Teken]

It also assumes *YOU* will be present, for such an event, to plug it back into the UPS. Not likely for most folks in a normal days lifestyle. Also, plugging in your alarm system into a UPS will prevent the alarm panel from detecting a loss of AC. The end result is that the monitoring station / you will never be aware of the AC fault, until well after the UPS is fully depleted.

This is also against UL listed standards.


Teken . . .

 

[Del91574]

Also, many UPS' don't automatically reset upon restoral of the AC power itself, they'll remain in a building fault mode until they die, which ends up extending the inevitable, even preventing a panel from recharging after a power outage (we just had it happen at a site this past Monday) It's easier to size the system's backup appropriately first, then worry about uninterruptable power as a separate line item, fed from a different source.

As stated, directly contrary to all manufacturer's recommended standard installation practices and UL.