Benefit of automation controller controlling WHA

[rhosch]

Continuing to research, read, and learn about home automation and WHA.

WHA systems like from HTD have some appeal... simple, they just work, but still offer a fair amount of flexibility.

I've also seen that many automation systems whether dealer installed or DIY like myserver or cqc can do media management.

Then I see on here the occasional reference as to whether a forum member wants his automation controller to control a russound, monoprice, HTD or similar WHA controller. What exactly are the benefits or capabilities gained by doing that? Is it using fancier UI on automation touchscreens instead of the more basic keypads? Or control over muting/ducking audio for security or other purposes? Or tying media browsing to selecting room, volume etc all in one place? All of that, or something else entirely?

Trying to figure out how sophisticated of a WHA system is needed, if a HA controller is involved. Similar I to whether radiora2 is needed if an automation controller is in the loop maybe?

 

[upstatemike]

The key to answering your WHA questions depends on what you envision your end state to be which in turn requires that you think about some additional questions:
 
How do you want to interact with your WHA system? Touch screen? Voice Control? Traditional Remote? PC or Tablet?
 
Do you want your audio system to do anything special like turn on automatically when you get home or enter a room? Automatically pause or mute during a phone call or when the doorbell rings?
 
Do you want anything besides music to play on your system? Doorbell sounds? Intercom or whole-house paging? Reminders or alerts?
 
Will you be using a local music library or streaming services or both?
 
Do you need all rooms to play in sync or only a subset of rooms that overlap acoustically or are used for parties or that you commonly move between during the day?
 
How many different program sources do you expect to be playing in different rooms at the same time?
 
Do you expect to display lyrics as songs are playing?
 
Do you expect to combine your music controls with controls for heating and lighting on the same screen or remote?
 
Do you need to use one button scenes to set up music zones, sources, and/or lighting/blinds?
 
Will you be sharing your audio speakers/system with your home theater setup?
 
Once you put some detail into what all you want to do it becomes easier to select the solution that will best fit your vision.

 

[wuench]

Some of  things I automate using my WHA solution (which is Sonos).  
 
Voice announcements - Things like take out the trash when I set the alarm on certain days, telling me when motion is detected, reminders, trouble alerts, etc
Workout Automation - Start playing a radio station in my workout room, along with turning on  fan, lights ,etc.  
Alarm clock - Wake up to a radio station on workdays/time except when I am on  vacation or a holiday
Party Mode - Tune to a certain radio station, along with other stuff like disable some automations functions, etc in anticipation of  guests.  At one time I also had this working with a Spotify app to allow people to queue own music etc but my  Spotfiy trial period expired.
 
As you can  see I am not much into having absolute control of my music I prefer radio/pandora/xm stations to playlists but even with my limited use cases I still require an automated WHA solution.  Voice announcements are a must have cornerstone of my setup.   I would not consider any solution that did not provide it.   And I kinda prefer something like Sonos without keypads, as keypads tend to age with  time and look archaic.  I would prefer not to end up with the equivalent of an '80's inwall intercomm system in 10 years or when I sell the house.

 

[pete_c]

Here never really put any dependencies on my software automation to manage my whole house audio similiar to tinkering with the cloud stuff but not having dependencies on it.  That is me.  Today I use automation as an addendum to primary control direct connect control which works fine for me. Thinking the "wire" to the keypads are serial connections.

Automation audio (MS SAPI voices) is a side tap in to the Russound system and while a nice to have not a feature or function of my music (well just like Alexa VR trinkets).
 
Most important to me is that it works sans any remote candy if possible.. 

In the automobiles went from listening to satellite to putting my entire music collection inside of the automobile...easy to do these days...

 

[upstatemike]

Some of  things I automate using my WHA solution (which is Sonos).  
 
Voice announcements - Things like take out the trash when I set the alarm on certain days, telling me when motion is detected, reminders, trouble alerts, etc
Workout Automation - Start playing a radio station in my workout room, along with turning on  fan, lights ,etc.  
Alarm clock - Wake up to a radio station on workdays/time except when I am on  vacation or a holiday
Party Mode - Tune to a certain radio station, along with other stuff like disable some automations functions, etc in anticipation of  guests.  At one time I also had this working with a Spotify app to allow people to queue own music etc but my  Spotfiy trial period expired.
 
As you can  see I am not much into having absolute control of my music I prefer radio/pandora/xm stations to playlists but even with my limited use cases I still require an automated WHA solution.  Voice announcements are a must have cornerstone of my setup.   I would not consider any solution that did not provide it.   And I kinda prefer something like Sonos without keypads, as keypads tend to age with  time and look archaic.  I would prefer not to end up with the equivalent of an '80's inwall intercomm system in 10 years or when I sell the house.

 
I am exactly the opposite when it comes to music listening. To me the transition from one song to the next makes all the difference between a pleasant listening experience and just more background noise. I take a fair amount of time constructing playlists not just for the selection of songs but also for the order of play. i will never understand the popularity of shuffing music... even when you listen on the radio somebody has put at least a little thought into what order to play their songs in, its not just totally random. 

 

[rhosch]

To answer some of the questions...

We have recently started using echo's and find that streaming music fits 90% of our needs. I do have some local media on an unraid server that would be nice to categorize and play when something more specific is desired.

For control, not a huge fan of phone apps. I understand the point about dated keypads. I have that fear too. If I could consolidate multiple keypads into a single common slick touscreen in a few key locations, that would certainly be a bonus (automation, WHA, security, etc). A normal WHA keypad in some rooms where full HA access isn't needed would be OK too, so having both coexist would be on the wish list. Can always update those a decade later if needed.

I like alexas voice control and interaction. I'd want to keep that. Saw a discussion about a local echo dot in each room ceiling mounted with an autosensing priority input on amp channel for each room so that Alexa can be used as expected locally (or globally I guess). That sounded very attractive. Does that really require one of those separate zone amps for each zone, or are their multichannel amps that have a second priority input for each zone?

Would like a little more granularity and control on zone groupings than simply "this room" or "everything" which is the current echo limitation. Could see wanting music outside only some days, inside and out some days, master suite only, all downstairs, whole house etc.

Have three kids so max concurrent sources I could ever see being used at once is 4. Hard to imagine more. Typically would be just one, but where it was playing would be key.

Automation and security announcements over WHA would be nice but not a critical requirement I guess. Same for doorbell. If it was an interactive door intercom that would be different I guess.

Theater will not integrate with WHA so far as no other zone would need to hear what's playing there. Hearing doorbell, intercom function, etc would be nice.

Speaking of intercom, yes, we would use that. Making use of the function with echos and would be fine to keep that solution. More convenient than walking over to a keypad actually.

 

[upstatemike]

OK it sounds like an Echo based system will do most of what you want to do. Based on that I would focus your research time on the following:
 
The myMedia skill works pretty well for playing local music files on Echos. It does not work with audio groups yet but you can get around that using a Dot to feed a common amp and then use the local Echos to control the Dot playing the music. (I named my shared Dot Stero to make commands more natural).
 
HTD is working on the multichannel amp with a second priority input. I think they were targeting February but I haven't seen a public announcement yet so I don't know if they are on schedule or not. If you want to use individual amps and just daisy chain the inputs then I suggest OSD as the best bang for the buck at $100 each.
 
If you plan top use Alexa music groups a lot I suggest some networking steps to stabilize the Echo connections. I am using a separate SSID that is 5GHz only but NOT set up as a guest network because you want them to be able to talk to your local music library on your LAN.
 
The advantage of the Dots and/or Spots feeding dual input amps is that you are dealing only with true Echos rather than Alexa enabled devices. This means all intercom, announcement, door camera, phone, and other features work as expected. You will be constrained however if you use regular Echos or Shows because they have no line out so cant be included in feeding an amp. They can still control your shared Dot feeding your amps so you might get an acceptable user experience, You can use the room groups and preferred speaker setting to help mitigate this.
 
This is a good point to pause and ask yourself if you really need the amps:
 
if you mainly play from streaming sources and don't need other components (beyond a myMedia app running on a PC someplace)
 
If you are satisfied with the sound from Echos alone
 
If your groups play reliably without glitching
 
Then you may not need the amplifiers at all.

 

[rhosch]

We really like the echo dots (bought a quartet at Christmas) but they won't satisfy our needs alone.

- sound quality isn't adequate. Overhead speakers with a little more juice is a must, especially in some zones like porch/pool area.

- groups is inadequate currently. Maybe this will improve with an update in the future. Right now its just local or group, and each echo can be part of only one group.

- voice control is nice, but there is a place for wall mounted keypad. I think we'd make use of both.


Will keep an eye out for the new HTD amp. I'm in no hurry, will be months before I have to make any firm decisions. That would make local dots overlaid on a HTD system with automation controller in the background an appealing setup I guess.

 

[ano]

Note that recently you can now pair two Echos for stereo, and you can even add a subwoofer they sell. The Echos need to be the same model and not all models work. Version 3 Dots work, but not version 1 or 2. I have this set up in one room and it works well. 

 

[tmbrown97]

 

- groups is inadequate currently. Maybe this will improve with an update in the future. Right now its just local or group, and each echo can be part of only one group.

This was fixed a couple months ago.  Now you can have one echo device as part of multiple groups. 
 
As mentioned above, you can also pair multiple echo devices as long as they're same make/model/generation.  I got two free Echo Dot Gen3's with my two Ecobee's and set them up in stereo - it actually does the imaging pretty well.  Some of the individual apps don't do it though, and in a room, it can get confusing setting something like an alarm.  I have two boys who share a room and I'm setting the echo dot G3's for them so the two will work together vs. fighting.
 
I still really like using the Echo with the whole house audio... the dots themselves don't sound great, but as part of the whole house, they do... also, for my oldest daughter, I got her a battery powered dock/speaker that makes hers portable, and it sounds WAY better.

 

[ano]

and in a room, it can get confusing setting something like an alarm.

This is where judicious use of the mute button comes into play.
 
Sound can be strange, I often will say something to one, and the one on the other side of the house seems to hear me and reply.

 

[wkearney99]

We have a pretty open floorplan and almost all hardwood floor (a few area rugs here and there).  It makes placement of Echo devices interesting.

Likewise the materials under/near the devices also affects their pickup.  

Sometimes when we're sitting at the casual dining table, the Echo Show (position 1) won't pick up commands.  Instead a gen 3 Echo Dot over at position 3 detects the command.  I'm guessing it's due to the way the mahogany kitchen cabinetry and quartz counters are causing bounces.  

I only added one at #3 because it came free with other purchases this past Christmas season.  I may not keep it there, and instead go back to just the Show in the kitchen and original Echo in the office.
 
I point this out because a WHA setup would likewise have to overcome open space and surface reflection complications.  While I wired the whole house for speakers, none have been installed.  The wires are up there, and I have x/y floor coordinates so I can find them, but I've yet to really feel the need to make use of them.  Speaker placement and active music playing would undoubtedly complicate voice recognition.  So I'm a bit hesitant to annoy the wife by adding a 'feature' that complicates something that's already working "well enough".
 

 

[xlurkr]

FWIW, I have a functioning WHA system, and neither Alexa nor Siri have trouble making out my commands with music on, though I'm sure there's an upper limit to the volume level for which this would be true.  And man, does it sound better than any of these little boxes.  A bigger problem is understanding the smart speaker's response with music or TV on, without having its output level so high that it would be painful with the other audio off.  When a smart speaker is the source of the music it will duck or mute it, but getting my Russound to duck whenever any smart speaker is speaking, regardless of the source on the Russound, is out of reach at the moment.  I could up the smart speaker volume and lower it again I suppose.
 
I don't have any voice control of the Russound right now, but if I add it, I could also get what I want with additional commands to mute and unmute after the interaction.  Finally, with the Show, I can just look at the screen for the answer in most cases, which is why I haven't done anything about it already.
 
-Tom

 

[rhosch]

This was fixed a couple months ago.  Now you can have one echo device as part of multiple groups. 

I'll look aat this again. I set up 4 just after Christmas, and could only include each echo in one group. Maybe I need to force an update.

I've seen some pretty inconspicuous ceiling mounts for 2nd and 3rd echo dots, and have seen adapters that replace the wallwart transformer and allow you to power them by POE cable/switch. Would simplify ceiling mounting not having to run 120v and figure out how to make code compliant receptacle hidden in the ceiling.

Leaning towards having a bit of all options... something like HTD with new priority input multichannel amps, echo dots in each room ceiling, and flexible automation like cqc behind. That would give me all the tools to mix and match until we found the right configuration for our uses.

 

[DavidL]

Continuing to research, read, and learn about home automation and WHA.



I've also seen that many automation systems whether dealer installed or DIY like myserver or cqc can do media management.

Then I see on here the occasional reference as to whether a forum member wants his automation controller to control a russound, monoprice, HTD or similar WHA controller. What exactly are the benefits or capabilities gained by doing that? Is it using fancier UI on automation touchscreens instead of the more basic keypads? Or control over muting/ducking audio for security or other purposes? Or tying media browsing to selecting room, volume etc all in one place? All of that, or something else entirely?

Trying to figure out how sophisticated of a WHA system is needed, if a HA controller is involved. Similar I to whether radiora2 is needed if an automation controller is in the loop maybe?

 
Yes, Allonis's myServer has a lot of ways to implement whole house audio.
The most basic is myServer can control several of the popular whole house matrix amplifiers (Nuvo, Russound etc).  This then allows for a deluxe user interface (phone, tablet, desktop PC, on screen TV etc) to be within all of the other automation capabilities (lights / climate / security etc).  And the automation events are contained within one ecosystem (turn on the kitchen zone to Pandora first thing in the morning at a low volume level etc).
 
myServer also IS a whole house audio system.  If the software is put on a Windows PC with a sound card, then myServer's Pandora, Google Music, Amazon, etc music streaming Apps can output the sound card in discrete zones.  Local music ripped content is also supported. Those outputs can then go to a "dumb" amplifier out to the speakers.  This is a large feature set that is very often not understood by folks looking for an automation controller - because they aren't thinking that is a feature of an automation controller to also the be streaming hardware.  Saves hundreds of dollars on additional hardware.
 
myServer can control many media devices like AndroidTV sticks, Kodi, Plex, Tizen (Samsung smart TVs), etc.  They can be the "player" (renderer).  Many of the myServer apps support an unlimited number of DLNA player devices. This includes Raspberry PI (and other similar very popular small computing devices). I use a Pi in my Barn connected to an old fashioned amp.
 
The automation controller also supports Sonos and Denon HEOS.  Zone control for both (volume, party mode, on / off etc), plus media selection and what's playing on HEOS.
 
Control of multizone AVreceivers (like Denon).  This is an inexpensive way to have up to say three total zones from one AV receiver investment.  You just need myServer running on a sound card PC, plugged in as sources on the Denon.  Then the Denon is wired to a home theater plus two other stereo zones (kitchen, outside as example).
 
And, you can do all of the above in one system.
That's what comes immediately to mind on common ways to implement whole house audio.  There are many more.