Bundling wires

[mikefamig]

I have a question about good wiring practices.
 
I have a house built in the 1960's with an unfinished basement. The electrician that wired the house stapled the AC NM on the faces of the floor joists instead of drilling the joists and snaking through the holes.
 
When installing my alarm system I ran rs-485 and zone wires along with some IP cable alongside and touching these wires. The system is running fine but I'm wondering now if that was the right thing to do. I'm thinking of getting some split plastic wire loom and wrapping it around the low voltage wires to create some separation between the high and low voltage cables.
 
So my question is what do you all know about bundling wires this way and how would you deal with.
 
Mike.

 

[pete_c]

Its been a few years now and I have chases here in the attic, attic to basement and basement which are a mixture of my speaker, catxx, LV, coaxial, et al.  The speaker cabling (16/2 mostly) is unshielded and I do not hear any noise today.  The 1-wire network is run in a star topology with one sensor per run mostly and it's been fine.   Network today is mostly Gb today running on Cat5e with no issues.  (plus POE).
 
Most sensitive to the weather has been the multiple runs of outdoor LV in pvc pipes and these are fine.  The cabling in the attic is placed high up (around 8 foot) and it too has been fine. (its a mixture of LV).  The HV conduit in the attic is all on the floor of the attic and there are no LV runs near it today.  I added new electrical circuits (new conduit) and LV stuff in the family room and did keep these chases separate by a few feet.  The electrician who did the home here ran most of the HV conduit for the second floor on the outside walls of the home which was beneficial to me relating to my LV chases which utilize the center of the home.
 
There are places in the basement where the chases run adjacent or close to HV runs.  I understand this could be an issue. 
 
That said its been some 10 years now and I have none that I can tell of.   Only issue has been quad shielded monster cable in the attic (twin) and its become brittle.

 

[mikefamig]

One thing that bothers me is that it looks awful strung across the ceiling even though it is adjacent to the wall. I am thinking of boxing it in to make it to code and improve appearances but want to treat it properly before closing it in.
 
Mike.

 

[wkearney99]

How about you don't box it in?  Re-run it through the joists properly. Yeah, it'll be a bit of a hassle but certainly less than working around it.  At least get a quote from an electrician.
 
As for the lines running too close, adding plastic split-looming will do nothing to help.  Plastic won't do anything as any electrical interference would pass right through it.  You generally want about 18" of separation between AC and low voltage lines.  However, if you're not getting noise on the lines now I'd say don't get worked up about it and leave them as-in.  Just don't add anything else that close.  Most line noise is going to come from there being devices powered through them that generate a lot of RF.  Stuff like motors (vacuums, fridge, AC unit), heaters and the like.  Most modern gear doesn't generate anywhere near the same amount of line noise as older stuff.  

 

[pete_c]

Yeah here (2 story home) the wiring in the basement is in the rafters and in the attic its just way high also in the rafters.  Both using these type of hangers.  You do see the wires in the attic and the basement here.   I built a chase from the basement to the attic in the center of the home.  It was a real PITA to configure.  Just looked at the distance from the top landing on the second floor to the ceiling of the first floor (balcony area) and its ~ 18-20 +" (which is the same from the main floor to the basement). 
 

 
I used the unfinished basement to run cables to the main floor and the attic to run cables to the second floor.  You do not see any cable runs anywhere on the main floor or the second floor. 
 
@Mike are you writing about the wires in the basement that go from the ceiling (rafters) to the wall by your punch panels and stuff?
 
You mention unfinished.  Are there any studs there on the wall? 

 

[mikefamig]

wkearney99
 
I have been here since 1996 so so I am with you on leaving it as-is but I am retired and may downsize at some point so I was thinking of running a 2x4 alongside the cable runs to bring it up to code for when we eventually sell the place. I assume that in the 60's it met code to just staple the cable to the joists and I have learned that if it is soldiered on each side by a 2x it will meet current code.
 
Mike.

 

[mikefamig]

Yeah here (2 story home) the wiring in the basement is in the rafters and in the attic its just way high also in the rafters.  Both using these type of hangers.  You do see the wires in the attic and the basement here.   I built a chase from the basement to the attic in the center of the home.  It was a real PITA to configure.  Just looked at the distance from the top landing on the second floor to the ceiling of the first floor (balcony area) and its ~ 18-20 +" (which is the same from the main floor to the basement). 
 

wirehanger.jpg
 
I used the unfinished basement to run cables to the main floor and the attic to run cables to the second floor.  You do not see any cable runs anywhere on the main floor or the second floor. 
 
@Mike are you writing about the wires in the basement that go from the ceiling (rafters) to the wall by your punch panels and stuff?
 
You mention unfinished.  Are there any studs there on the wall? 

 
pete_c
 
I have seen those sort of hangars and am thinking of adding a few of those too.

 

[pete_c]

Yeah here all of the stapled LV wires were redone.  That was just the HVAC thermostat and doorbell wiring and original cat5e utilized for the telephone wiring.  (IE: cat5e for telephones was run to every room in the house at the time).
 
Not sure on methodologies of house inspections relating to LV stuff in residential cabling; historically even in small businesses mostly they had absolutely no clues relating to the LV cabling stuff that I could see (even just a couple of years ago).   Now maybe that has changed to the implementation of new building codes just relating to LV cabling / wiring. 
 
New construction around 2000; I had a telephone person redo all of the cat5e cabling he used as originally he had stapled it and daisy chained it.   Basically it was to be done my way only at the time. (lots of this happened during new construction as I knew more about this than the contractor who was clueless relating to LV wiring).

 

[wkearney99]

There's a lot of what I think of as 'superstition' regarding sale of properties and code compliance.  Code is only really relevant to new work and things that get changed.  So while it may not fall into code compliance today there's nothing that "requires" changing old work.  But other than outright safety issues there's nothing that about older work that any new code forces you to change.  
 
My comment about moving the wires it was directed toward the notion that in basements ceiling height is generally a problem.  So putting bulkheads, soffits or other box-like assemblies usually takes away valuable ceiling height.  Or just looks crappy.  But if you think boxing it in would work, hey, go for it!

 

[mikefamig]

There's a lot of what I think of as 'superstition' regarding sale of properties and code compliance.  Code is only really relevant to new work and things that get changed.  So while it may not fall into code compliance today there's nothing that "requires" changing old work.  But other than outright safety issues there's nothing that about older work that any new code forces you to change.  
 
My comment about moving the wires it was directed toward the notion that in basements ceiling height is generally a problem.  So putting bulkheads, soffits or other box-like assemblies usually takes away valuable ceiling height.  Or just looks crappy.  But if you think boxing it in would work, hey, go for it!

 
I understand that there is no need to bring old work up to new code. On the other hand I didn't like the look of these wires when I bought the house, it just looks unprofessional. I was concerned when I first saw it but an electrician assured me that it was safe and not uncommon in the 60's.
 
It's the kind of thing that doesn't help your case when you try to sell the house. Kind of like curb appeal but in the basement.
 
Mike.

 

[mikefamig]

How about you don't box it in?  Re-run it through the joists properly. Yeah, it'll be a bit of a hassle but certainly less than working around it.  At least get a quote from an electrician.

 
Re-routing the wires to code would be a can of worms. The first problem that I see is that the cables would need to be lengthened which would involve splices and splices would involve one or more enclosures.
 
We have considered adding a whole house generator to the house and at that point I would considersome re-wiring but that may never happen.
 
Mike.

 

[wkearney99]

Re-routing the wires to code would be a can of worms. The first problem that I see is that the cables would need to be lengthened which would involve splices and splices would involve one or more enclosures.
 
We have considered adding a whole house generator to the house and at that point I would considersome re-wiring but that may never happen.
 
Mike.

 
Agreed.  It could well be a can of worms.  If boxing it in could be done in ways that 'work for you' then go for it.  
 
Sometimes folks get ticked off when complicated suggestions get made, so don't get me wrong.   My point is a lot of the time folks put effort into doing something that would really have been better done differently.  Quite often a quote from a contractor reveals it might not be "as bad" as people expected.  But it sounds like you already know this.

 

[pete_c]

Yup; here wife owned a home many years ago.  It was her grandparents home.  She did upgrade the electric / electric service.  The original home was built in the late 1940's or early 1950's in Chicago.
 
Much of the electric was cloth covered wires.  In the basement rafters there was still bare copper wires around insulators that still carried electricity.
 
The electrician brought in new service to a new panel rewiring much of the main floor electricity.  The attic was finished but never utilized so no new electric there was installed.  The basement electric bare copper wires with insulators was left in place and utilized after the electrical upgrade.
 
Her electric update was done in the 1970's and her costs at the time was around $3000 via a friend of a friend in the trade (electrician).  All of the walls in the home were plaster and she did mention that some walls were redone.  
 
Recently a friend that was involved in IT sold his home downsizing a bit.  He paid to have his home staged for sale and was able to get a good price for it.  The staging was all cosmetic and cost less than 20 K.  The house did sell for around 600k (2 years ago) and took less than a year to sell.  He built said home in the 1970's. 
 
Last year helping a friend went looking at his daughters relatively new home in Michigan.  The home was maybe 4 years old with 3 floors of living space at > ~4k square feet.  The home had bedrooms in the basement, main floor and 2nd floor.  His daughter had one child such that the home only had 3 people living in it.  It was on a farm (multiple acres).  He did also update the barn making it a living space of sorts with electric and water.  Well it was the ultimate little (not so little) workshop (cars were a hobby of his son in law).  I was there relating to the want to automate and install security and looked at the base infrastructure for ease of running new cables.  Friend was there much to be able to visit his new grandchild and while there he had to keep busy doing stuff.
 
It was built with two HVAC systems and he wanted to help lower their energy costs.  He is in construction.
 
I am not sure how he did it but he installed a wood burning stove on the main floor and did a bit of ductwork tweaking (I couldn't tell) making the main floor of the home utilize the wood burning stove heat rather than the natural gas furnace.  (he also redid the water heater stuff).

 

[Del91574]

How about you don't box it in?  Re-run it through the joists properly. Yeah, it'll be a bit of a hassle but certainly less than working around it.  At least get a quote from an electrician.

Cabling is fine either way, and in some ways, more preferable to NOT drill the joists. Usually the only reason why HV is run through bored holes is because of habit or the AHJ wants to ensure the HO doesn't hang things on the cabling (though they do it the same way on bored electrical). Once you start boring, you start having to consider the size of the bundle vs. location in the framing member's face and then the % of the joist removed.
 
In many ways, it's better for LV to have a hanger or raceway type device installed (drive rings, bridle rings, data hooks, etc.) HV is rarely changed, LV cable is changed or modified more often than those systems. Also, usually running a larger bundle of LV cable through bored holes in joists leads to cable damage. Far easier with 22 or lighter AWG conductors and construction.
 
Changing or moving the HV on the other hand will most likely lead towards a partial rewire or at minimum, a lot of 4" square boxes, which negates the "finish" portion of the basement anyways since they can't be buried.
 
@ Mike, in the NE, it's actually very common for the "older" builds, especially in MA or around the borders, for the carpenters to install strapping on the bottom of the joists so the electrician to NOT have to bore out the wood.