Cable Internet During Power Outage
- Thread starter jmed999
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From experience with multiple sites, both on ISP based VOIP (digital phone service in their buzzwords), VDSL, DSL and other services....any VOIP service is going to be at the mercy of the infrastructure the ISP installs. In the case of VDSL, all in the NE, they mount their network nodes on the poles powered by HV and battery backup, however in the case of the long losses because of the hurricanes this year and last year, the loss of commercial power for long periods killed the batteries and they chained gas powered generators to the poles to attempt to get services up.
In the case of some of the CATV guys, if they have repeaters and amplifiers out in the field, while there may be power via backup batteries or similar, once those field devices go down, you're done as there's no rerouting the service around that amplifier or repeater, again depending on infrastructure.
Cell towers generally have backup UPS power, but again, first hand experience, those stores and backups only last so long and we had 25-40% of all the cell towers in the Atlantic seaboard down from either storm damage or extended power loss surpassing their UPS lifetimes.
While these are extreme examples, it does happen. Cell is generally more stable in my area compared to ISP based services in the extreme weather or catastrophic events, however if the cabling on the cell to landline conversion side is down....well you're done.
The only true option for consistent operation is LRR on a private network to the CS. Some use direct service while others use other subscribers to form a mesh network. Not a DIY affair, but they work extremely well and are just as fast or faster than cellular in applications where a cell is unreliable.
In the case of some of the CATV guys, if they have repeaters and amplifiers out in the field, while there may be power via backup batteries or similar, once those field devices go down, you're done as there's no rerouting the service around that amplifier or repeater, again depending on infrastructure.
Cell towers generally have backup UPS power, but again, first hand experience, those stores and backups only last so long and we had 25-40% of all the cell towers in the Atlantic seaboard down from either storm damage or extended power loss surpassing their UPS lifetimes.
While these are extreme examples, it does happen. Cell is generally more stable in my area compared to ISP based services in the extreme weather or catastrophic events, however if the cabling on the cell to landline conversion side is down....well you're done.
The only true option for consistent operation is LRR on a private network to the CS. Some use direct service while others use other subscribers to form a mesh network. Not a DIY affair, but they work extremely well and are just as fast or faster than cellular in applications where a cell is unreliable.
In my neck of the woods. Here in CT.
I have a small phone company equipment shack at the end of the road.
When power is lost. I have roughly an hours worth of phone use before its backup batteries go dead.
Then I get close to zero loop voltage on the phone lines and no phones at all.
Until they park a trailer with a big battery pack next to the shack and connect it.
In the real long hurricane outage we did see a large generator parked next to the shack.
I have a small phone company equipment shack at the end of the road.
When power is lost. I have roughly an hours worth of phone use before its backup batteries go dead.
Then I get close to zero loop voltage on the phone lines and no phones at all.
Until they park a trailer with a big battery pack next to the shack and connect it.
In the real long hurricane outage we did see a large generator parked next to the shack.
linuxha
Active Member
This is where fiber to the home service like Fios has it's advantages, since it's a passive network there are no powered devices between my house and the CO, unlike Coax cable which require powered repeaters. Also since it's glass, it's inert, immune to power surges and even water submersion. So basically I need to UPS my equipment and the CO has large generators.
Unfortunately Fios has a silly limitation on the battery backup they provide with their ONT where it will only power the POTS ports and shutdown IP, this is clearly a anti competitive tactic to prevent you from relying on VOIP rather than their phone service for E911 emergency. SO you need to put your own UPS on their ONT to keep IP up during a power outage.
Unfortunately Fios has a silly limitation on the battery backup they provide with their ONT where it will only power the POTS ports and shutdown IP, this is clearly a anti competitive tactic to prevent you from relying on VOIP rather than their phone service for E911 emergency. SO you need to put your own UPS on their ONT to keep IP up during a power outage.
I would look into your understanding of FIOS and how it really works. It's not passive at all. What is true with your install is not true with the technology as a whole.
If you're close to the network node, you may not have any powered hardware between you and the CO. If you have any sort of loss or heavy attenuation on the fiber, there's going to be repeaters or additional hardware installed, as 90% of the installs out there are not going to be direct fiber patches from the CO to your ONT. Guaranteed there's going to be patch panels for a few locations, each generating an insertion loss, so once you start heading to a loss of above 4 dB end to end, there's other hardware that you're probably not aware of, that is regenerating the signal.
While it is true that glass is inert to induced surges, at least around here, the fiber that is installed in the ground is loose tube with a corrugated metal outer jacket for what is called "rat proofing" and only aerial cables are PET insulated, surrounding the PET buffer, but it still has a metal messenger cable or is lashed using metal lashing to messenger cables going down the street, etc. So the fiber is inert, but how it's installed is the key to whether or not it's succeptable to surges, lightning, etc.
The E911 and other issues aren't anti competitive, it's liability based, as 911 vs. E911 and the VOIP providers connecting to an E911 like system are all spelled out by the FCC. E911 is different than picking up a POTS line and dialing 911.
If you're close to the network node, you may not have any powered hardware between you and the CO. If you have any sort of loss or heavy attenuation on the fiber, there's going to be repeaters or additional hardware installed, as 90% of the installs out there are not going to be direct fiber patches from the CO to your ONT. Guaranteed there's going to be patch panels for a few locations, each generating an insertion loss, so once you start heading to a loss of above 4 dB end to end, there's other hardware that you're probably not aware of, that is regenerating the signal.
While it is true that glass is inert to induced surges, at least around here, the fiber that is installed in the ground is loose tube with a corrugated metal outer jacket for what is called "rat proofing" and only aerial cables are PET insulated, surrounding the PET buffer, but it still has a metal messenger cable or is lashed using metal lashing to messenger cables going down the street, etc. So the fiber is inert, but how it's installed is the key to whether or not it's succeptable to surges, lightning, etc.
The E911 and other issues aren't anti competitive, it's liability based, as 911 vs. E911 and the VOIP providers connecting to an E911 like system are all spelled out by the FCC. E911 is different than picking up a POTS line and dialing 911.
tmbrown97
Senior Member
Echo what DEL said; they don't home-run the fiber all the way to the CO; they run it to distribution centers which require power.
I'm in a newer Master Planned Community with Fiber To The Home and internet automatically provided to each home; but even with the battery backup they installed in my closet (to which there is no maintenance plan to replace the batteries and they're all hitting EOL now) I'm still dependent upon the hub points losing power.
I'm in a newer Master Planned Community with Fiber To The Home and internet automatically provided to each home; but even with the battery backup they installed in my closet (to which there is no maintenance plan to replace the batteries and they're all hitting EOL now) I'm still dependent upon the hub points losing power.
Fios is a GPON (some BPON) as in PASSIVE optical network. Are you sure about your understanding?
The typical loss budget is 28db or about 12 miles to CO. I have seen the Fios optical splitters out in the boxes on the streets, they are unpowered optical splitters. There are no powered devices between my ONT and the OLT at the CO. If you live more than 12 miles from a Verizon CO then maybe, I have never seen this anywhere in the Tampa area, my CO is less than a mile away.
The entire Fios plant here in Tampa is underground and with completely polymer jacket in plastic conduit. There is a secondary metal trace wire outside the jacket so they can scan it precisely because the main cable is non metallic.
What does this have to do with the battery backup? There is absolutely no technical reason why the ONT could not provide standard IP service when on its battery backup, the pots lines are also IP based on a secondary network hidden from the inet IP network, this is not a power budget issue. Yet Verizon warns you that internet service will go down in a power outage but their pots lines from the ONT will stay up, I have tested this myself, it is purely software switch in the ONT based on a business decision to do this.
I'm not going to get into the exact specifics and arguments regarding FIOS, but I'll stand by the basics as I said before, what may be true with your install and how your network plant is constructed isn't the case across the country and I'll say that in the locales that we're working in, FIOS is far from passive.
There's a whole other side that isn't part of this discussion and I don't have the energy to write it all in a post.
There's a whole other side that isn't part of this discussion and I don't have the energy to write it all in a post.
Where is Fios installed such that it needs a remote OLT and what do they put these OLT's in, I didn't think they where normally rugged enough to be put in street-side boxes, are they some other sort of PON amplifier(not really a pon then)? I am genuinely interested in this as my understanding was they didn't install it in rural areas yet to keep from having to do remote OLT's which mean <12 miles from the CO. I really hope your aren't being pedantic about what a CO is, if it's under generator power then that is exactly my point vs cable plants running off of straight utility power for their powered hubs at the neighborhood level.
Here are photos of my ONT (notice the Vz battery BU that won't power IP) along with the passive splitter (FDH) at my workplace (same one as in the street side boxes):
Here is a picture of an OLT:
http://news.cnet.com...-5894693-8.html
Here are photos of my ONT (notice the Vz battery BU that won't power IP) along with the passive splitter (FDH) at my workplace (same one as in the street side boxes):
Here is a picture of an OLT:
http://news.cnet.com...-5894693-8.html
Here is a great overview of the Fios system showing in detail how it is passively distributed from the CO, this example shows aerial distribution:
Here is the complete article with more detail: http://www.broadband...TP_Tutorial.htm
Here is the complete article with more detail: http://www.broadband...TP_Tutorial.htm
That page and link are not typical of the outside plant around my area of the country, nor the installation practices and hardware, as I stated earlier.
The plant that you experience in your locale or on a 3rd party webpage is not how it is installer around here, combined with the acceptable losses on their backbone. They don't allow anything near the numbers that you referenced as "budgeted".
For example, we have a very large campus site with FTTP and even leased VZ fiber for specific applications in our case and there is hardware installed on the "circuit" of fiber between the Dmarc and CO quite frequently. Straight fiber patches are as common as seeing 70 degree weather here in the winter.
The plant that you experience in your locale or on a 3rd party webpage is not how it is installer around here, combined with the acceptable losses on their backbone. They don't allow anything near the numbers that you referenced as "budgeted".
For example, we have a very large campus site with FTTP and even leased VZ fiber for specific applications in our case and there is hardware installed on the "circuit" of fiber between the Dmarc and CO quite frequently. Straight fiber patches are as common as seeing 70 degree weather here in the winter.
Are you talking about Fios or not? Do you know what a PON is?
"A PON is characterized by the use of no electronics in the field and is supported by a set of mature standards and is the most widely deployed FTTH architecture in the US."
http://www.corning.com/WorkArea/downloadasset.aspx?id=10889
Unless you are going to tell me Corning knows less about this than you do?
Maybe these guys also don't know what they are talking about: "Typical deployed split factors are 1:32 (17.5-dB) or 1:64 (21-dB) and occasionally 1:128 which is the maximum defined by the standard."
http://www.genexis.eu/ftth-technologies/gpon
Or theses guys: http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-G.984.1-200803-I/en
Or this guy who actually trains Verizon personnel: http://www.gordostuff.com/2008/05/passive-optical-networks-pons.html
Is this Fios? Is it BPON or GPON? Do you have any picture of this powered device, some reference to it on the internet?
Most definately FIOS and leased fiber applications. We have PONS and GPONS installed in certain select markets, however their increased signal attenuation are part of the reasons, with the second being the distance from CO's, as to why they're not always the deployed method of outside cable plants in my section of the country.
When we are working with fiber patches and PTP, we are not allowed to run the "maximum" as listed within the spec.
I honestly don't have the desire to go into the nearest vault and start taking pictures to point out plant archetecture and components in this case, nor is it worth it for me to have them open up a couple of their CO's that are direct patches to one of the main campuses I was speaking about.
I'm not going to argue the points with you, it's not worth it to me.
When we are working with fiber patches and PTP, we are not allowed to run the "maximum" as listed within the spec.
I honestly don't have the desire to go into the nearest vault and start taking pictures to point out plant archetecture and components in this case, nor is it worth it for me to have them open up a couple of their CO's that are direct patches to one of the main campuses I was speaking about.
I'm not going to argue the points with you, it's not worth it to me.
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