Can a door have just an exit delay in 'Stay' mode?

[scotsman]

I have a few side doors in the house leading to our garden.  My wife regular sets off the alarm in the morning accidentally by opening them while the alarm is in 'Stay' mode.
 
What I would like:
1) In stay mode, there is an entry delay on violation allowing her to silence an accidental alarm.  The keypad should alert her.
2) In armed mode the doors are standard 'Burglar Perimeter Instant'.
 
I can't figure out how to do this.  Is it possible? Is 'dialer delay' the key here?
 
Thanks!

 

[jpmargis]

How about a red light by the door to the garden to remind your wife that the alarm is armed?

 

[ano]

A red LED (or full keypad) by the door is the best way to go.  You should consider adding a keypad by every exit door or at least in every room with an exit door. 
 
Second, a 15 second dialer delay is good to have ANYWAY.  Usually 15 seconds is enough as long as you have keypads nearby.
 
Third, what you can do is make the door a non-alarm zone, then just use programming to to trigger the alarm when the conditions you set are true.  Doing this is a bit different on ELK vs. HAI, but generally not hard.

 

[sic0048]

I know there is a way to program the ELK to have a entrance delay when armed stay/night.  I have this set up at my house.  If armed night and someone opens the front door, the keypad will give it's entrance delay tone, but the alarm won't activate for a set period of time.  However, I'm not at home to look and see how I did it.  :wacko:

 

[newalarm]

I know there is a way to program the ELK to have a entrance delay when armed stay/night.  I have this set up at my house.  If armed night and someone opens the front door, the keypad will give it's entrance delay tone, but the alarm won't activate for a set period of time.  However, I'm not at home to look and see how I did it.  :wacko:

that would be the easiest way to do it. I understand the need to an instant alarm, but it is probably more of a hassle with false alarms. Plus, if you are home, and you someone breaks in, the count down timer will start triggering the tone on the keypads. I would imagine, if you have keypad in bedroom, it would wake you up.

 

[scotsman]

Thanks folks for the suggestions. This is a retrofit so no chance of any more keypads. I'll give dialler delay a shot. Just in the middle of installing the alarm so I can't test it right now. Does the siren go off immediately with a dialler delay? I'd prefer not - just a keypad beeping should be fine.

I'd be interested to know how you did it Brian if you get chance to have a look.

 

[Del91574]

Could also write a time based rule for boolean to change stay instant to stay, assuming Elk.
 
Easier still is training the wife.

 

[tmbrown97]

Third, what you can do is make the door a non-alarm zone, then just use programming to to trigger the alarm when the conditions you set are true.  Doing this is a bit different on ELK vs. HAI, but generally not hard.

This is actually not easy on the Elk - there's no way to programmatically set off the alarm.  You'd have to burn an output into an input for it to be clean or there were a couple of other workarounds we found when experimenting with this many years ago.
 
I like the idea of some rules to toggle between instant and delay; perhaps at night when there's no motion or past a certain time, it goes to night instant.  In the morning if it's past a certain time and motion is detected in the room with that back door then it switches the house to regular night or stay (not instant).  Best of both worlds IMO.

 

[sic0048]

I forgot to look how I had my delays set up, but I'm pretty sure I put the entrance doors on a standard delay and put all the windows on instant alarm.  We do occasionally open a door in the morning without disarming the system and having an instant alarm on those doors would simply make a bigger problem IMHO.  Even I do it sometimes, so it's not something I can blame on the wife.  

 

[Del91574]

I'd start with a rule and change the armed mode, if already armed Night or Night instant to Stay based on a time occurance, since in theory, the panel is only going to be armed with that mode if someone is remaining in the home.

Relatively easy to program.

 

[scotsman]

So just trying again to solve my problem.  None of the solutions that have been suggested seem to quite do what I want.
 
- Armed, no delay in AWAY mode
- Armed, delay in STAY or NITE mode
 
According to the chart below from my elk manual, even if I do change the mode using a rule it still doesn't help.  Now if I could change the zone definitions then that would be a different story - I could change the doors when in stay mode from perimeter instant to entry delay.  Kind of disappointed, unless there is something obvious I am missing here.
 

 

[apostolakisl]

There is no perfect solution to what you ask.
 
Solutions:
1) Use an output to control a relay that is connected to a second zone (use the normally closed connectors).  Give this zone a slightly different name than the zone for the door in question.  Write a rule that turns the output on in response to the door opening while armed away.  Define the second zone as an instant alarm.  Also define the zone actually connected to the door as a delay zone.
 
2) Use rules to bypass/unbyass a dummy zone.
Again, define the zone connected to the door as a delay zone.
Whenever
zone "door wife opens" becomes not secure
and 
armed away
Then
Unbypass zone y
 
Zone y is an unused zone that is set to instant alarm.
 
You'll need another rule to bypass the zone at all other times.
 
You'll probably want that zone assigned to a different area so that your keypads won't show bypassed or violated zone all the time, and you'll need a rule that arms that area whenever the main area is armed.
 
3) If you have an ISY.
Write an ISY program that turns on an F-key when that zone violates while armed away.  The f-key it activates needs to be one for instant burglar alarm.  Unfortunately, Elk rules have no way to directly activate an alarm or activate an f-key, so you must have an ISY or some other external Elk controller capable of "pressing" an f-key.  Also as before, define the zone connected to the door as a delay zone.
 
Solution 1 is going to be the most pure since the alarm will be defined as that door in that area.  The other two solutions will report an alarm to central station as either being in a different area or as being a panic key.  None the less, the police will be summoned.  

 

[scotsman]

Now that's a clever solution Lou.  Solution 1 looks the best: I hadn't thought of tying a relay to a second dummy zone.  Great idea.  I suppose you would get two violations on the same door in the case of an intrusion in Away mode, a second one after the entry delay.
 
But I suppose this doesn't matter as the alarm has already gone off...
 
Many thanks for your help.  I'll let you know when I get it running.

 

[apostolakisl]

Now that's a clever solution Lou.  Solution 1 looks the best: I hadn't thought of tying a relay to a second dummy zone.  Great idea.  I suppose you would get two violations on the same door in the case of an intrusion in Away mode, a second one after the entry delay.
 
But I suppose this doesn't matter as the alarm has already gone off...
 
Many thanks for your help.  I'll let you know when I get it running.

 
Glad to help.
 
In fairness, work2play also suggested that earlier but coded it as " you would have to burn an output and an input".
 
Using this method is the purest in my opinion as far as zone definitions and types, but you have to use up a relay and a zone.  
 
I suppose it might be possible to run an output directly to a zone and avoid the relay.  When the output is on, it would read open (13v), and when the output is off, I believe it would back flow through the output to ground and read as a short.  I just don't know, you'd have to ask the people at Elk if that is safe to do.

 

[elvisimprsntr]

I had a similar issue. I would routinely set off my alarm in stay mode when I walk out on my balcony in the morning to read the news and drink my coffee. I assigned the upper floors to a different area and sympathetically arm those areas only in away mode. Stay mode only arms the garage and first floor.