Can someone explain automated lighting to me?

[EmagSamurai]

My house is currently under construction, and I'm trying to get a grasp on all the things that I can do with HA. It seems like lighting is one of the best uses, but there's so much information, and so many options that it's hard to figure out where to start.

Could someone explain how automated lighting works. Specifically, I'm planning to prewire my house for home automation, as I can't afford it now. I'm not clear on how the lighting will work if there are no hardwires back to the controller. In the pre-wire 101, I didn't see anything about pre-wiring for the lights, so I'm guessing it's wireless. Does this cause a delay when you press a button? What happens if the controller dies? I've read a little about options that have Cat 5 to each switch, but I haven't found anything about how well they work.

I know some systems require running all the wiring back to the controller, but this is definitely not an option for me.

Sorry for the noob questions, but there's just too much information to digest!

 

[Dean Roddey]

It would definitely be better to wire for it now while you can. It'll never be faster and more reliable than that, so absolutely do that if you can. Even if you can't afford to do it to every single nook and cranny of the house, do it to the major areas of the house. There are various systems that will allow you to combine wired and wireless, so you can do wired in the most important cases and wireless elsewhere.

As to the actual wiring requirements, I'm a software guy so someone else will have to help you with that.

 

[wuench]

There are a couple of types of wired lighting. There are the kinds where you wire all of your loads to a central controller and just run signal wires to the switch locations (no power) and there are types where you run a control wire to each switch location along with the normal power wire.

But there are also the wireless lighting protocols (UPB, ZWave, Insteon, RadioRA, etc.) RadioRA and Zwave are wireless, UPB is powerline and Insteon is powerline and also wireless if you use Insteon dual-band. You can install these after the fact and they can operate without a central controller. By adding a central controller you can add more complex logic. Some central controllers are standalone, like the ISY or Vera, others require a PC. Controllers also allow you to interface with other systems like Security Panels, IPhone, Automation software, etc. As far as delay, most of these protocols do not have noticeable delays when installed properly. But these can all be installed after the fact and you can build your system over time.

The most important thing, if you plan on a wireless protocol is to make sure you have a neutral wire in each box. This is becoming code now in some places, but most places it isn't, so you are almost guaranteed to have a couple of switches "tailed off" a light without a neutral at the switch location in a couple of places if you don't insist on it. A neutral is usually required because these switches draw power all the time so they can communicate, if there is no neutral at the switch box they can't communicate.

 

[tmbrown97]

I wrote up a detailed bit of info about UPB - it's in my signature. I've been using it for almost 5 years now, and would probably still install it in my next house.

 

[EmagSamurai]

Great writeup! I'd read that before, but it was worth rereading now that I know a little more. It did bring up another question, though. It's been reiterated several times that I need a neutral in every box. I hadn't stopped to think about what this statement was saying, but now that I stop to think about it, I'm not sure I understand. To me, a typical light switch will have a hot (the black wire) and a neutral (the white wire) as well as a ground (the bare wire). How can the electrician run the lights without keeping a neutral in each box? I'm guessing I'm missing something or that my terminology is a little off.

 

[samgreco]

Only one leg of power needs to be broken to turn off a light. So very often, a hot wire is the only thing going to the switch, then from the switch to the fixture. The neutral can go to the fixture from anywhere.

 

[wuench]

An electrician can run a power wire to the light first then the switch. So you will have two wires + ground at the switch (black, white, ground). One will be hot, one will be load, one will be ground. No neutral. Instead if they run power to the light first, they need to run 3 wire to the switch from the light (white/black/red+ground).

Happens all the time because an electrician will run the smallest number of wires the shortest distance to save their costs and increase their profit.

 

[EmagSamurai]

An electrician can run a power wire to the light first then the switch. So you will have two wires + ground at the switch (black, white, ground). One will be hot, one will be load, one will be ground. No neutral. Instead if they run power to the light first, they need to run 3 wire to the switch from the light (white/black/red+ground).

Happens all the time because an electrician will run the smallest number of wires the shortest distance to save their costs and increase their profit.

I can't figure out how to do that with three wires. If you bring the hot to the light box first, then a hot wire (black) would go to the switch, on the second pole of the switch you would take back the load (say red) to the light. Then the neutral line would have to go back to the switch box, and then another line would need to go back to the light box to complete the neutral. That looks like four wires plus a ground. I know that extra wire isn't necessary, but I can't figure out how it's supposed to be wired?

What am I missing here? I'm sure it's a simple thing I'm overlooking. :blush:

 

[wuench]

No neutral at switch means they don't use a red wire between the light and switch. That's what you are asking for. An HA switch needs 3 wires so it can get a complete circuit when the load is off.

No Neutral At Switch

==Black(Line)====O=========Black(Line)===Switch
==White(Neutral)===Light===White(Load)===Switch

Neutral At Switch

==Black(Line)====O=========Black(Line)=====Switch
==White(Neutral)=O==Light==Red(Load)=======Switch
		  \========White(Neutral)==Switch

 

[EmagSamurai]

I didn't think code allowed you to switch the neutral? Maybe I'm reading your diagram wrong?

I think I understand what you're getting at, though. It looks like they just tie the extra conductor back into the neutral at the light. It can just be left disconnected when a normal switch is in the box, correct?

 

[wuench]

The light may be on the black wires in the top diagram normally, not sure it matters. You aren't switching the neutral, it is used to power the switch. Yeah, it would just be capped off for a normal switch.

 

[123]

EmagSamurai,

Have a look at this post from a few years ago (2007):
http://cocoontech.co...dpost__p__77135

This is a recurring issue encountered by everyone who attempts to add PLC devices to an existing home. Invariably, they run into a light switch that lacks a neutral line. 3-way circuits present their own complications (see my linked post).

As mentioned, given that you are having the home constructed, ensure that all 2-way switches sit between the line and the load. In a 3-way circuit, ensure the line feeds one of the two switches (preferably whichever is deemed the 'Companion').

Consider having deeper boxes (3" vs, 2.5") installed to provide more room for larger (than non-PLC) PLC switches and wire-nuts.

PS
Found in the linked post, but worth repeating here:
3-way Wiring Configurations

 

[pete_c]

I guess you can also look at this from your electrical contractors point of view. His purpose is to provide switches and electricity where its defined in the drawings you have. The methodology he chooses to do that is what he is most familiar with relating to conventional switch or outlet wiring.

So basically if he can provide a ceiling light on and off switch with only 2 wires; he is doing his job. The light still will go on and off with no neutral wire in the box.

It will be difficult though to explain the additional neutral wiring because he is not familiar with that methodology or why because he only knows that it takes two wires to turn on the switch.

Relating to lighting technology; basically its direct non HV cable like a cat5 talking to a switch from a controller, powerline technology only utilizing the HV wires to a controller which sits on the HV wires of your home, a hybrid of both powerline and wireless or just wireless.

If the controller quits working typically you can use your switches manually unless you've programmed them as virtual on the wire switches (additional controllers per say).

I would also consider breaking up the panel wiring into smaller sections; like more breakers / circuits with more home runs to the fuse panel. Its not like I am drawing 10,15 or 20 amps from one bedroom but its nice to know that I have mostly one breaker to one room. IE: my master bedroom / bathroon has three breakers (2 for the bathroom and 1 for the bedroom). I redid my family room and added separate circuits for just the MM/computer MM stuff which originally were not there. Just convenience I guess.

I see you kind of leaning towards using powerline or maybe wireless and not really LV wires to the switch. You can though "wanting to cover all bases" wire cat 5/6 to the switch boxes.

I guess then "automated lighting" is just simply a means of remote or automating the control of a light. This could even be with just a timer or clock or PIR built into the light switch.

The speed of the remote control of the lightning really is dependant on the technology utilized. Some faster reponse times than other. Most of the time the response times to remote control is not even noticed.

The prewiring for the "lighting technology" is just that. You are providing the infrastructure for automating the lighting. Deep boxes for switches and neutral wires to the boxes and maybe hard LV wires to the boxes depending on the technology. So you are not putting in the technology immediately but want to have infrastructure in the HV electrical installed such that you are ready to automate the switches / outlets.

I see the current technology evolving some but really don't see anything new coming up in the next 5 years or so that would change the base infrastructure of what you are planning on doing.

I am currently though playing with the DIY technology available; using X10, UPB, Insteon and Z-Wave. Coming from the X10 world starting around 1978; my roots are still much embedded in pure powerline technology (UPB) versus the hybrid or pure wireless at this time even though I am playing with the technology. Old fashioned a bit in the belief that a directly connected wire is still better than no wire; that is me though.

 

[EmagSamurai]

I would actually prefer a hardwired solution, but I'm not sure what exists other than systems like Lutron that (as I understand it) would require hardwiring all the 120 V stuff back to the controller somewhere. Which systems utilize Cat5 at each switch for control?

 

[apostolakisl]

The hardwired solutions will be much more difficult to install, even with the walls open. You will need to really think it out and decide which outlets/switches you might ever want to automate and pull a cat5 to it. This can become miles of wire and have an enormous confusing bundle at your homerun location. These sorts of systems are not really geared to the diy person and will probably be considerably more expensive.

I believe code is such that you will have a neutral in every box. I have never seen a house built in the last 20 years that didn't, but who knows. For a light to work, it needs hot and neutral only. Ground is technically optional from a functional standpoint, it is strictly for safety. The neutral can go straight to the light, it never needs to go to the switch. The hot only can go to the switch where it is either allowed to pass through (switch on) to a second wire that goes to the light or it is not (switch off). But if you are building a new house, it should be all three wires to every box. Check with your electrician to be sure.

The power line stuff like Insteon and UPB are essnetially instant. I have Insteon, a human could never detect a delay, it is a few milliseconds. Programatically driven stuff can have a delay. Like if you have it linked to your alarm system, it may take a half a second for an alarm to turn the lights on, but who cares.