Can someone explain automated lighting to me?

[pete_c]

So I did a google search. Here is a quote from one of the links from 2005.
Kind of old.

http://ths.gardenweb...0433314659.html

Start Small! People spend thousands on automation products, only to find they don't work or the installer wasn't doing their homework.

Because you are building a new house, the first step is to prewire the entire house. This will allow you to retrofit automation systems in the future as your needs and desires change.

Companies such as Vantage, LightTouch, Lutron, and Lightolier are high end systems. They can offer decor faceplates, customized lighting solutions, and, hopefully, experienced installers for a price. In addition to $200 light switches, you will need a central controller. This can easily cost more than a $1000.

EDT and ONQ ALC are systems geared for the middle income as well as high end residential markets. ONQ offers a complete home automation solution in addition to the lighting control. EDT offers a stand alone i-LiNE lightng control system. ONQ also has a central control module that can control more than just the lighting system. EDT has no central control module. Switches for these systems are about half the price of a high end system. This does not include the cost of controllers or installation.
Low end "hobbyist" products, such as X10, have reliability issues. However, there are second generation systems, such as UPB, that are 99% reliable.

A fully automated house is very expensive, but understand that platforms such as HAI, HomeLogic, Elk Products, Applied Digital, HomeSeer, Meedio, and Premise, are designed to control more than a just one lighting system. So if one solution turns out to be unreliable, you still have the option of retrofitting with a more reliable system.

I was just thinking of my last chat with Lutron at last year's EhExpo in Florida. The technological person was very well versed. He seemed almost enamored with the technology; really a good thing.

When I started to ask the Lutron person some detailed questions about the transport and specfically about their new RF stuff he went a bit "chatty kathy" then just stopped; not so much like he didn't know it; but more like he had already talked enough about the technology and just wanted to move on to the next person ready to ask questions. It was a pleasant conversation and a learning experience.

 

[tmbrown97]

If it helps any, typically when you see an "end of run switch" - one that doesn't have a neutral, there's often still a white whire in there because that's just how romex rolls; but in those cases, you're supposed to "re-code" the wire to black by wrapping black electrical tape around it - indicating that it's hot.

I have a 5yr old house in California and I did find one switched receptacle that was wired without a neutral; but that's where changing to a UPB receptacle and using a remote switch turned into a pretty sweet fix.

In fact, let me detail that out a bit... Most people think that, without a Neutral, UPB is out. That's not 100% true! If you have an end-of-run switch, where there's no neutral - you have two options.

1. The more common option, is that people will put a switch or receptacle relay/dimmer at the fixture itself; then they'll fix the wires that run to the switch so they're a hot and neutral, and no switched load - this gives you the hot and neutral needed at the switch location - but now you have to use links to control the fixture.
2. The Simply-Automated UPB switches, outlet, and fixture relays/dimmers all support their dedicated USR40A remote switch. What's great about this is that it only requires 2 wires - so you can use the previous runners now as a neutral and a traveler. Added bonus - it works as a part of the main fixture, not a separate accessory... so to get into setup mode, you can tap the paddle 5 times just like with normal switches... and you're skipping links, so status follows better too. The only thing you're losing generally is the LED... but you're saving quite a bit of money over the alternatives, and you'll be fully compatible with LED/CFL still - unlike the non-neutral Z-Wave options.

 

[apostolakisl]

If it helps any, typically when you see an "end of run switch" - one that doesn't have a neutral, there's often still a white whire in there because that's just how romex rolls; but in those cases, you're supposed to "re-code" the wire to black by wrapping black electrical tape around it - indicating that it's hot.

I have a 5yr old house in California and I did find one switched receptacle that was wired without a neutral; but that's where changing to a UPB receptacle and using a remote switch turned into a pretty sweet fix.

In fact, let me detail that out a bit... Most people think that, without a Neutral, UPB is out. That's not 100% true! If you have an end-of-run switch, where there's no neutral - you have two options.

1. The more common option, is that people will put a switch or receptacle relay/dimmer at the fixture itself; then they'll fix the wires that run to the switch so they're a hot and neutral, and no switched load - this gives you the hot and neutral needed at the switch location - but now you have to use links to control the fixture.
2. The Simply-Automated UPB switches, outlet, and fixture relays/dimmers all support their dedicated USR40A remote switch. What's great about this is that it only requires 2 wires - so you can use the previous runners now as a neutral and a traveler. Added bonus - it works as a part of the main fixture, not a separate accessory... so to get into setup mode, you can tap the paddle 5 times just like with normal switches... and you're skipping links, so status follows better too. The only thing you're losing generally is the LED... but you're saving quite a bit of money over the alternatives, and you'll be fully compatible with LED/CFL still - unlike the non-neutral Z-Wave options.

I bet that one switch was something that the electrician forgot about or something and snuck it in after inspection!

But anyway, any switch will have to have 2 wires going to it, and as stated, since Romex comes with white/black/ground, it will likely have these three. Typically in the example where the switch is not wired with with three-in/three-out, but rather 1-in, 1-out, ground, those three wires will both go up to the fixture. At the fixture, you could connect black/black, white/white, ground/ground. Then at the switch you would have a regular hot/neutral/ground. But you won't have switching ability with those wires. With insteon, they make an inline switch which is designed strictly to receive insteon signals (it has no paddle or buttons). If your box at the fixture is big enough, you can put the inline unit in the box at the light fixture, and then program the switches in the room to communicate with that inline switch (which actually controls the light). Functionally, this would be identical to the situation where the switch at the wall controlled the light directly, but it would cost you an extra $40 or so for the inline unit.

 

[EmagSamurai]

I'm beginning to see where the $20K+ price tags for some of those Crestron and Control 4 solutions come from. There is an unreal amount of information that you have to digest to make the entire system work and play together.

It seems like the moral of the story so far is to make sure I get a neutral in the switch box. It still seems a little odd that code would require it when it will just have a wire nut on it in some cases.

 

[EmagSamurai]

BTW, I really appreciate all the help I've been getting on the forum! You guys are great, and I appreciate you humoring a noob that's asking the same questions that have been asked a thousand times before.

 

[oberkc]

It seems like the moral of the story so far is to make sure I get a neutral in the switch box. It still seems a little odd that code would require it when it will just have a wire nut on it in some cases.

Yes...get neutral at every switch location. I understand the most recent update to the NEC added this requirement. Whether your locale adopted the 2011 NEC, I don't know. I don't find it odd at all. The proliferation of automation, motion, and light-activated devices has created a potential safety issue when people were using ground for a neutral.

I bet that one switch was something that the electrician forgot about or something and snuck it in after inspection!

I doubt it. The wiring described is known as a "switch loop". These are very common and, until 2011, fully code compliant.

 

[apostolakisl]

I'm beginning to see where the $20K+ price tags for some of those Crestron and Control 4 solutions come from. There is an unreal amount of information that you have to digest to make the entire system work and play together.

It seems like the moral of the story so far is to make sure I get a neutral in the switch box. It still seems a little odd that code would require it when it will just have a wire nut on it in some cases.

The white doesn't terminate in the gang box, it gets tied into neutral that then goes up to the fixture.

I would speculate that it is done this way becuase otherwise you have an incorrect colored wire in the box. When you run a "hot loop" from the fixture to the switch, one wire is going to be white but still be hot. The tape labeling trick isn't necessarily reliable. Plus, it really uses minimal or no extra wire in total.

 

[apostolakisl]

I doubt it. The wiring described is known as a "switch loop". These are very common and, until 2011, fully code compliant.

I have to wonder if local codes haven't required it. While it is pretty much the same thing to wire up a box with a single switch either way, it is definitely more of a PITA in a 3 or 4 switch box. And my electricians without request wired my entire house that way. I kind of don't seem them doing that if they weren't required, but maybe they were just nice guys?

 

[EmagSamurai]

Does anyone know the section of the NEC that this is in?

EDIT: I think I found it. 404.2 © Where switches control lighting loads supplied by a grounded general purpose branch circuit, the grounded circuit conductor for the controlled lighting circuit shall be provided at the switch locations.

Informational Note: The provision for a (future) grounded conductor it to complete a circuit path for electronic lighting control devices.

There you have it! Looks like the NEC is providing an upgrade path for all us HA enthusiast!

 

[oberkc]

The white doesn't terminate in the gang box, it gets tied into neutral that then goes up to the fixture.

True, if power is supplied to the switch box. If introduced at the fixture, then one may very well have a capped white wire in the switch box.

I would speculate that it is done this way becuase otherwise you have an incorrect colored wire in the box. When you run a "hot loop" from the fixture to the switch, one wire is going to be white but still be hot. The tape labeling trick isn't necessarily reliable.

The tape trick may not be reliable, but it is code compliant. Additionally, multi-way installations use white (remarked another color) for hot. I don't see this practice going away any time soon.

 

[EmagSamurai]

I just checked, and our city has not adopted the 2011 code yet. I'll have to revisit this with our electrician and see if I can convince him it's really the right way to do it.

 

[apostolakisl]

True, if power is supplied to the switch box. If introduced at the fixture, then one may very well have a capped white wire in the switch box.

Sorry for not being more clear, but yeah. That is the only way you would ever want to run a neutral to the switch's gang box. It wouldn't make any sense to run power to the fixture, then run a switch loop to the switch's gang box along with a neutral. That would require three plus ground going from the fixture to the box instead of 2 plus ground.

The tape trick may not be reliable, but it is code compliant. Additionally, multi-way installations use white (remarked another color) for hot. I don't see this practice going away any time soon.

I found the code. It has an explaination for the change and it is because people are putting things like automated switches in and using the ground as neutral. They want to prevent people from doing that since it presents a potential safety issue.

And I know that the tape trick is compliant, it just is somewhat lacking. Especially when you are re-purposing a neutral (white) to something that is hot. If the tape falls off or someone shortens it up and doesn't put the tape back on, you have a hot that looks like a neutral.

 

[oberkc]

It wouldn't make any sense to run power to the fixture, then run a switch loop to the switch's gang box along with a neutral. That would require three plus ground going from the fixture to the box instead of 2 plus ground.

I am not an electrician, but I suspect that there are times when it is more convenient to run unswitched power to the fixture. Box fill limitations may also favor such an arrangement at times. It may actuall take less total wire to run power to the fixture and 3-conductor to the switch, than power to the switch and 2-conductor to the fixture.

I suspect that we will see capped white wires in switch boxes.

And I know that the tape trick is compliant, it just is somewhat lacking

Agreed. I don't trust wire colors. I verify.

 

[edge]

If you really want a hardwired solution, look at cat 5 switches or ALC from www.setnetpro.com.

It's easier to run the wire before the sheet rock, and not afterwards, like I did. You don't need a cat 5 cable for each switch, you split off the pairs that you need, and Yes, it takes a little thought and organization---but most of the better installs have a good amount of thought put into it.

I wanted a hardwired solution that didn't need special wiring techniques---most of the folks here like UPB, but in my house it didn't work to my satisfaction.

Read /search the threads by Sacedog and others to get additional insight on all of your lighting options.

 

[EmagSamurai]

Oh great! Just when I thought I had this figured out :blink:

From what I could find looking through his threads, it seems like this solution is more expensive than upb, but I would assume that it's also more reliable, correct?

I have to make a decision about this pretty quickly. They're finishing up framing of our first floor today, so I can only guess we're a few weeks away from electrical. I hate that I've waited this long, but I really had decided that home automation was too expensive. When I checked on the AVS forum, it seemed the consensus was to go with Crestron or Control4, and I just couldn't afford that. I didn't realize there was a DIY solution available.