Centralite LiteJet48 or Elegance

[Mark]

All,

This is my first post, just registered after a couple of nights reading posts. Let me say first of all, thanks to everyone here for keeping this professional, especially when it comes to opinions about gear and methods of installation. Hopefully I am in the right place.


I am preparing to built a house in central Texas, and would like (among other things) to incorporate lighting control into the mix. After quite a bit of research, and even to the point of buying and installing $1000 worth of UPB products, have decided that a Centralite hardwire system would best fit my bill for the new house. But, I have some reservations regarding some things I have either heard or suspect, and need your feedback and experience.

Here are some general bullets about the house...

4000 sq ft
4 bedroom
4.5 bath

In addition to these rooms...

Study
Home Office
Formal Dining
Formal Living (not that we live formally, just another place to hang out)
Kids Study (not that they study much other than scatter principal of toys)
Attached 3 car garage
Front courtyard
Rear Yard, pool area
Rec room


Electronics...
Russound ComPoint Intercom system... 10 zones
Xantech MRC 88 for 8 zones
A/V receivers for Family room, Rec room, and study
dual DirectTV HD TIVO's
various other audio and video source components
InLine Matrix 8x8 HD switch (ebay for 500 bucks)
HAI or ELK security system that I can do some minor integration with security, lights, and IR control


etc... You get the picture.... Rancho costo mucho, and I am on the edge of what I should afford.

First of all, I really am not that impressed with the UPB stuff that I bought, and I won't bag on any particular brand, but my experience with them is as follows...

1. They take a huge amount of box space and you really have to cram the wires into the box, which makes me nervous.
2. I used the switches that you can change out the functionality and mechanism of the switch itself, and I think it feels "light", sort of hobby grade.
3. A few of the switches don't respond well to a single press.
4. The "scenes" that I programed seem to get crossed. When there are already individual lights on contained in a scene, and subsequently, you try to activate a scene, you get nothing, or an unexpected result like the whole scene turning off.
5. No matter what you think in advance, when you hit a switch or button regarding a light, you expect it to happen. Nothing frustrates more than an unexpected result. Lights are not just for looks, they involve safety functions and everyday living. The UPB comes close, but 9 out of 10 isn't good enough in this department.

Anyway, for these reasons, the UPB has met with resistance from visitors, friends, kids, and the wife. I must admit they don't work the way I had hoped.


So, I have decided on two courses of action for the new house....

1. A Centralite LiteJet 48 system for the main areas, augmented by it's UPB control for rooms such as the kids areas, garage, laundry, etc. The reason for this is I can't keep the light load to less than 48 loads, so I will have to augment with something... the UPB stuff could be added later. Centralite will sell me the 48 and I can put it in and program it with little or no support.

OR

2. A Centralite Elegance system, using however many loads I need just to make everything work the same everywhere, and forego the UPB stuff.



Here are my concerns, and I will label them so you can respond to them individually if you desire...

Concern #1...

The LiteJet 48 system is really just a LiteJet 24 that has 24 extra loads and nothing extra else. This limits me to 30 scenes and I think 32 Keypads (more accurately 192 buttons). 32 Keypads (192 buttons) with only 30 scenes doesn't make much sense to me... If I divided the 48 loads into, say, 8 rooms (or areas), that gives me 6 loads per room, which would do me pretty good for the more public areas, but I am now limited to short of 4 scenes per room. When you figure "transitional" scenes from one area to the next, like from the kitchen to the main hall, you could run out of "scenes" pretty quick, and considering that you need to still control those UPB devices sitting out there in the wings, that gets pretty slim for control options? Thoughts...


Concern #2...

If I go with the Elegance, obviously, there are no real limitations, except for my own budget. OH, and I would also like to hook this thing up myself. I don't really want to run the HV stuff, but the control, hookup, and setup of the LV stuff would be my baby... Does Centralite even allow this??


Concern #3...

Does anybody have a rough guess as to how much more the elegance system would cost?? I was figuring that the Lite Jet 48 at about $5500 for hardware only figures to about $115 per load. (Yikes) UPB at around $80 per load.



Concern #4...

If I am correct, I see each MCP connection point (where the RJ45s hook into the controller) will support 6 buttons each... Then why doesn't centralite offer a 6 button keypad in their "classica" line of keypads. I can't find it anywhere? They do offer it in their "europa" line, but I think the buttons are goofy when they are arrow shaped towards each other, and to a visitor, that can lead to confusion. Heck, I am confused already wondering how I would program those things. The 6 button doesn't have the same basic shape as, say, a 2 button. I would like to program the keypads as much the same in each room as possible... Top button turns something on, bottom button turns everything off. Buttons in between give you different light "shapes". There isn't much mention of their other keypads, which look pretty weak to me. Any programming tips would be great...


Concern #5...

Speaking of keypads, a couple of people on here have stated they thought the Centralite keypads didn't have the "feel" quite right. Anybody care to try to explain what they mean by this... Maybe I just need to order a keypad just to play with it myself...


Concern #6...

Fans... They come in two basic varieties. Vent fans and ceiling fans. I would like to control both with the centralite system, just to make the wall clutter look right. Nothing fancy here. Ceiling fan will either be ON or OFF, no speed control and I don't really want to use a fan board for this purpose. In the case of a vent fan, I would like it to come on when I push the button, and then stay on for a timed period. If I hit the button again, it turns off. If I have 7 vent fans in my house, that is a lot of money to do something a switch timer from Home Depot would do for 15 dollars. Do I need to be so vain that I spend 700 dollars so I don't clutter up the wall in the throne?? For that matter, same thing goes for the ceiling fans everywhere else... 9 ceiling fans plus 7 vent fans takes up 16 loads... yikes. Is that why centralite is trying to sell that fan control board??


Concern #7...

Non dimmable loads.... Motors, outlets (I am in the country, and no electrical inspection), flourescents, etc. The litejet allows you to hook this stuff up and then program it as "non dimmable" load, and it will shoot the full voltage to that device. In the case of the elegance, which I understand is older technology, you are supposed to replace the "phase controlled dimmer relay" with a different realy. How is this actually accomplished, and how much does it cost??


Concern #8...

I live in a very hot, fairly humid climate. My house will be "super" insulated, and as energy effecient as I can make it. The inside air will be fairly low in humidity (very low air exchange rate compared to most homes). Can I mount these relay panels in the garage and keep their heat out of the house, or will centralite throw a fit. The garage will get pretty warm and humid, so that isn't a perfect situation either. How much heat do these panels produce?? If I put them in an equipment closet inside, will that closet get hot?? I have a lot of other equipment I need to put in there too, and none of it wants to be hot either. Cold weather here is not severe, normally no lower than the teens.


Concern #9...

Subcontractors... So far all of the electrical guys I have talked to locally, not one has ever installed a hardwired system. This isn't Southern California and most people here are very simple (I am not a local, nor treated like one). I am of the opinion that this would be much simpler to install than a regular electrical system with conventional switches (especially with lots of 3 and 4 way switches on multiple circuits). When I have talked to any sparky's that are interested in these systems, they start talking about how much they have heard they cost, which irritates me as it isn't their cost or complexity... that is mine to deal with, but they act like they will want a big premium for dealing with something different.... Makes me want to wire it myself, but I don't trust myself quite that much with the HV, so I know I will need to hire the HV done. What language in a contract is different from what a regular electrical contractor should expect, or do I just carefully spec it out to them in GREAT detail???



OK, that is enough. Again, any opinions are greatly appreciated. Please be gentle, though. I have a lot of ownership in my research so far.

Thanks for your comments in advance.

Mark

 

[CentraLite MW]

All,

This is my first post, just registered after a couple of nights reading posts. Let me say first of all, thanks to everyone here for keeping this professional, especially when it comes to opinions about gear and methods of installation. Hopefully I am in the right place.


I am preparing to built a house in central Texas, and would like (among other things) to incorporate lighting control into the mix. After quite a bit of research, and even to the point of buying and installing $1000 worth of UPB products, have decided that a Centralite hardwire system would best fit my bill for the new house. But, I have some reservations regarding some things I have either heard or suspect, and need your feedback and experience.

Here are some general bullets about the house...

4000 sq ft
4 bedroom
4.5 bath

In addition to these rooms...

Study
Home Office
Formal Dining
Formal Living (not that we live formally, just another place to hang out)
Kids Study (not that they study much other than scatter principal of toys)
Attached 3 car garage
Front courtyard
Rear Yard, pool area
Rec room


Electronics...
Russound ComPoint Intercom system... 10 zones
Xantech MRC 88 for 8 zones
A/V receivers for Family room, Rec room, and study
dual DirectTV HD TIVO's
various other audio and video source components
InLine Matrix 8x8 HD switch (ebay for 500 bucks)
HAI or ELK security system that I can do some minor integration with security, lights, and IR control


etc... You get the picture.... Rancho costo mucho, and I am on the edge of what I should afford.

First of all, I really am not that impressed with the UPB stuff that I bought, and I won't bag on any particular brand, but my experience with them is as follows...

1. They take a huge amount of box space and you really have to cram the wires into the box, which makes me nervous.
2. I used the switches that you can change out the functionality and mechanism of the switch itself, and I think it feels "light", sort of hobby grade.
3. A few of the switches don't respond well to a single press.
4. The "scenes" that I programed seem to get crossed. When there are already individual lights on contained in a scene, and subsequently, you try to activate a scene, you get nothing, or an unexpected result like the whole scene turning off.
5. No matter what you think in advance, when you hit a switch or button regarding a light, you expect it to happen. Nothing frustrates more than an unexpected result. Lights are not just for looks, they involve safety functions and everyday living. The UPB comes close, but 9 out of 10 isn't good enough in this department.

Anyway, for these reasons, the UPB has met with resistance from visitors, friends, kids, and the wife. I must admit they don't work the way I had hoped.


So, I have decided on two courses of action for the new house....

1. A Centralite LiteJet 48 system for the main areas, augmented by it's UPB control for rooms such as the kids areas, garage, laundry, etc. The reason for this is I can't keep the light load to less than 48 loads, so I will have to augment with something... the UPB stuff could be added later. Centralite will sell me the 48 and I can put it in and program it with little or no support.

OR

2. A Centralite Elegance system, using however many loads I need just to make everything work the same everywhere, and forego the UPB stuff.



Here are my concerns, and I will label them so you can respond to them individually if you desire...

Concern #1...

The LiteJet 48 system is really just a LiteJet 24 that has 24 extra loads and nothing extra else. This limits me to 30 scenes and I think 32 Keypads (more accurately 192 buttons). 32 Keypads (192 buttons) with only 30 scenes doesn't make much sense to me... If I divided the 48 loads into, say, 8 rooms (or areas), that gives me 6 loads per room, which would do me pretty good for the more public areas, but I am now limited to short of 4 scenes per room. When you figure "transitional" scenes from one area to the next, like from the kitchen to the main hall, you could run out of "scenes" pretty quick, and considering that you need to still control those UPB devices sitting out there in the wings, that gets pretty slim for control options? Thoughts...


Concern #2...

If I go with the Elegance, obviously, there are no real limitations, except for my own budget. OH, and I would also like to hook this thing up myself. I don't really want to run the HV stuff, but the control, hookup, and setup of the LV stuff would be my baby... Does Centralite even allow this??


Concern #3...

Does anybody have a rough guess as to how much more the elegance system would cost?? I was figuring that the Lite Jet 48 at about $5500 for hardware only figures to about $115 per load. (Yikes) UPB at around $80 per load.



Concern #4...

If I am correct, I see each MCP connection point (where the RJ45s hook into the controller) will support 6 buttons each... Then why doesn't centralite offer a 6 button keypad in their "classica" line of keypads. I can't find it anywhere? They do offer it in their "europa" line, but I think the buttons are goofy when they are arrow shaped towards each other, and to a visitor, that can lead to confusion. Heck, I am confused already wondering how I would program those things. The 6 button doesn't have the same basic shape as, say, a 2 button. I would like to program the keypads as much the same in each room as possible... Top button turns something on, bottom button turns everything off. Buttons in between give you different light "shapes". There isn't much mention of their other keypads, which look pretty weak to me. Any programming tips would be great...


Concern #5...

Speaking of keypads, a couple of people on here have stated they thought the Centralite keypads didn't have the "feel" quite right. Anybody care to try to explain what they mean by this... Maybe I just need to order a keypad just to play with it myself...


Concern #6...

Fans... They come in two basic varieties. Vent fans and ceiling fans. I would like to control both with the centralite system, just to make the wall clutter look right. Nothing fancy here. Ceiling fan will either be ON or OFF, no speed control and I don't really want to use a fan board for this purpose. In the case of a vent fan, I would like it to come on when I push the button, and then stay on for a timed period. If I hit the button again, it turns off. If I have 7 vent fans in my house, that is a lot of money to do something a switch timer from Home Depot would do for 15 dollars. Do I need to be so vain that I spend 700 dollars so I don't clutter up the wall in the throne?? For that matter, same thing goes for the ceiling fans everywhere else... 9 ceiling fans plus 7 vent fans takes up 16 loads... yikes. Is that why centralite is trying to sell that fan control board??


Concern #7...

Non dimmable loads.... Motors, outlets (I am in the country, and no electrical inspection), flourescents, etc. The litejet allows you to hook this stuff up and then program it as "non dimmable" load, and it will shoot the full voltage to that device. In the case of the elegance, which I understand is older technology, you are supposed to replace the "phase controlled dimmer relay" with a different realy. How is this actually accomplished, and how much does it cost??


Concern #8...

I live in a very hot, fairly humid climate. My house will be "super" insulated, and as energy effecient as I can make it. The inside air will be fairly low in humidity (very low air exchange rate compared to most homes). Can I mount these relay panels in the garage and keep their heat out of the house, or will centralite throw a fit. The garage will get pretty warm and humid, so that isn't a perfect situation either. How much heat do these panels produce?? If I put them in an equipment closet inside, will that closet get hot?? I have a lot of other equipment I need to put in there too, and none of it wants to be hot either. Cold weather here is not severe, normally no lower than the teens.


Concern #9...

Subcontractors... So far all of the electrical guys I have talked to locally, not one has ever installed a hardwired system. This isn't Southern California and most people here are very simple (I am not a local, nor treated like one). I am of the opinion that this would be much simpler to install than a regular electrical system with conventional switches (especially with lots of 3 and 4 way switches on multiple circuits). When I have talked to any sparky's that are interested in these systems, they start talking about how much they have heard they cost, which irritates me as it isn't their cost or complexity... that is mine to deal with, but they act like they will want a big premium for dealing with something different.... Makes me want to wire it myself, but I don't trust myself quite that much with the HV, so I know I will need to hire the HV done. What language in a contract is different from what a regular electrical contractor should expect, or do I just carefully spec it out to them in GREAT detail???



OK, that is enough. Again, any opinions are greatly appreciated. Please be gentle, though. I have a lot of ownership in my research so far.

Thanks for your comments in advance.

Mark

 

[ctay]

I am in the finishing steps of a LightJet 48 install. Here are some things I have found.

For my house I needed 52 loads (not counting 2 fans... more on that later). I just put the 48 "main" loads on the system and put the closet lights and pantry lights on "regular" switch legs and will add UPB later if I decide that I need to control those lights with my lighting controller. The 48 Loads turned out to pretty much cover everything I needed. I did put 5 bath fans and 5 ceiling fans as loads. I also have 2 fans controlled by a fan speed controller. FYI I had to call centralite to get the answer to this question: Fans on the Fan Speed Controller DO NOT count as loads for your 48 load max. In other words I have 50 Loads really controlled by the 48 load system because 2 of the loads are on the fan speed controller. You can have 2 Fan Speed Controller boxes per 24 load main and each fan speed controller controls 2 fans so therefore you can have 4 "extra" fan loads per 24 load for a total of 8 "extra" fan loads per 48 Load system. Whew... Bottom line you can hardwire control 56 loads if you put 8 fan loads on Fan Speed Controllers.

You only get 30 scenes with a 48 load system. I think that will be enough for me but I guess I'll find out when I start programming. The real limiting factor for me was switches (or more to the point "buttons") You can have 16 6 button switches per box for a total of 192 buttons on a 48 load system. As long as you plan a little you should have no trouble controlling 48 loads with 192 buttons. I agree that they should have built a 6 button "classica" switch. Oh well... Can't have everything... The switches are really only contact closure switches so you can really use ANY switch you want to get that contact closure. The classica switches feel fine to me. Perhaps I don't have quite as refined sense of touch as others... Everyone I know that has seen and played with my switches seem to like them. I haven't had anyone say they feel cheap or not very responsive.

If you have a business and can get a dealer account check out Worthington Distribution for the best price on the LightJet 48.

As far as where to mount your boxes, there are a couple of concerns. The first is you can not insulate 6" around the litejet control boxes. So if you put these on an exterior wall you lose 6" of insulation around the cans. If you don't insulate your garage just put them on a garage wall and your golden. Another concern is that by code (in my area anyway) if you have a power run over 75' you need to step your wire up to the next size. So if your garage is on the far end of your house you could potentially run up against 75' and have to use 12/2 instead of 14/2 for the lighting runs. That would add some cost to the install for sure. I mounted my cans right next to the garage on my 2 story 3300 sqft house and no run worked out to be over 60 ft.

My house is not complete yet so I don't have my system up and running but from looking at the cover of the Litejet box I am fairly sure that these put out a good deal of heat. You probably wouldn't want to have them in a closet with other heat producing components. I mounted mine in our mud room and I don't think that there should be any problem.

As for your electrician there should be no problem with any electrician installing this system. The only difference between this and traditional wiring is that the switch legs go to the LiteJet box instead of the switch box in the room. I found that I used LESS romex in the install than I would have if I traditionally wired. The wiring is LESS complex as there are no 2, 3 and 4 way switches. If you plan everything out before he starts pulling wire you won't run into any problems. By plan everything out I mean that you should know how much juice each lighting load draws before he starts pulling wire. You are limited to 8 amps per "relay" and 16 amps per "Module" (Relay is each load and there are 4 relay's per "module"). That means that any 1 load can not be more than 960 watts and no more than 1,920 watts per module (@ 120 volts). I just made a spreadsheet that listed out my loads and the draw for each load then "balanced" them across the modules in both boxes. The whole system can not have more than 144 Amps (17,280 Watts @ 120volts) which is WAY more than I needed. Once you know which load goes to which relay the electrician just makes up the LiteJet box according to your spreadsheet. Making up the box is very similar to how they would typically make up a regular service so it should not be difficult for them to figure out. If they have constant drooling problems and they drag their knuckles on the ground you can provide them with the install DVD which really explains how to install the system. Really straight forward for the average electrician.


Really long winded but I tried to dump out most of what I have learned with my install. Let me know if you have other questions.

 

[brotsten]

I'm in the trimout phase of my house, I installed a 96 load Elegance system. I can probably answer some of your questions.

Concern #2...

If I go with the Elegance, obviously, there are no real limitations, except for my own budget. OH, and I would also like to hook this thing up myself. I don't really want to run the HV stuff, but the control, hookup, and setup of the LV stuff would be my baby... Does Centralite even allow this??

Officially no. But...

Concern #3...

Does anybody have a rough guess as to how much more the elegance system would cost?? I was figuring that the Lite Jet 48 at about $5500 for hardware only figures to about $115 per load. (Yikes) UPB at around $80 per load.

I paid about $145 per load for the hardware.

Concern #4...

If I am correct, I see each MCP connection point (where the RJ45s hook into the controller) will support 6 buttons each... Then why doesn't centralite offer a 6 button keypad in their "classica" line of keypads. I can't find it anywhere? They do offer it in their "europa" line, but I think the buttons are goofy when they are arrow shaped towards each other, and to a visitor, that can lead to confusion. Heck, I am confused already wondering how I would program those things. The 6 button doesn't have the same basic shape as, say, a 2 button. I would like to program the keypads as much the same in each room as possible... Top button turns something on, bottom button turns everything off. Buttons in between give you different light "shapes". There isn't much mention of their other keypads, which look pretty weak to me. Any programming tips would be great...

The MCP connects to Stars, each Star accepts 24 switch inputs. You can have 16 Stars.


Concern #5...

Speaking of keypads, a couple of people on here have stated they thought the Centralite keypads didn't have the "feel" quite right. Anybody care to try to explain what they mean by this... Maybe I just need to order a keypad just to play with it myself...

They are a little goofy the way they are mounted on the switch plate (Lutron BTW). I think the multiple (ie 4) switches feel better then a single switch.


Concern #6...

Fans... They come in two basic varieties. Vent fans and ceiling fans. I would like to control both with the centralite system, just to make the wall clutter look right. Nothing fancy here. Ceiling fan will either be ON or OFF, no speed control and I don't really want to use a fan board for this purpose. In the case of a vent fan, I would like it to come on when I push the button, and then stay on for a timed period. If I hit the button again, it turns off. If I have 7 vent fans in my house, that is a lot of money to do something a switch timer from Home Depot would do for 15 dollars. Do I need to be so vain that I spend 700 dollars so I don't clutter up the wall in the throne?? For that matter, same thing goes for the ceiling fans everywhere else... 9 ceiling fans plus 7 vent fans takes up 16 loads... yikes. Is that why centralite is trying to sell that fan control board??

The fan control board gives you three fan speeds for ceiling fans as they don't work with the phase control dimmers. I don't have any ceiling fans, but used a load for each of my bath/vent fans.


Concern #7...

Non dimmable loads.... Motors, outlets (I am in the country, and no electrical inspection), flourescents, etc. The litejet allows you to hook this stuff up and then program it as "non dimmable" load, and it will shoot the full voltage to that device. In the case of the elegance, which I understand is older technology, you are supposed to replace the "phase controlled dimmer relay" with a different realy. How is this actually accomplished, and how much does it cost??

You change out the Crydom relay. I bought 10 on eBay for $80.


Concern #8...

I live in a very hot, fairly humid climate. My house will be "super" insulated, and as energy effecient as I can make it. The inside air will be fairly low in humidity (very low air exchange rate compared to most homes). Can I mount these relay panels in the garage and keep their heat out of the house, or will centralite throw a fit. The garage will get pretty warm and humid, so that isn't a perfect situation either. How much heat do these panels produce?? If I put them in an equipment closet inside, will that closet get hot?? I have a lot of other equipment I need to put in there too, and none of it wants to be hot either. Cold weather here is not severe, normally no lower than the teens.


I think your only concern in mounting is the distance you have to run the HV legs.

Concern #9...

Subcontractors... So far all of the electrical guys I have talked to locally, not one has ever installed a hardwired system. This isn't Southern California and most people here are very simple (I am not a local, nor treated like one). I am of the opinion that this would be much simpler to install than a regular electrical system with conventional switches (especially with lots of 3 and 4 way switches on multiple circuits). When I have talked to any sparky's that are interested in these systems, they start talking about how much they have heard they cost, which irritates me as it isn't their cost or complexity... that is mine to deal with, but they act like they will want a big premium for dealing with something different.... Makes me want to wire it myself, but I don't trust myself quite that much with the HV, so I know I will need to hire the HV done. What language in a contract is different from what a regular electrical contractor should expect, or do I just carefully spec it out to them in GREAT detail???

It's pretty straight forward and well documented. It was my electricians first install and I laid out what I wanted and it went smoothly.


Hope that helps.

Brian

 

[Herdfan]

Concern #8...

I live in a very hot, fairly humid climate. My house will be "super" insulated, and as energy effecient as I can make it. The inside air will be fairly low in humidity (very low air exchange rate compared to most homes). Can I mount these relay panels in the garage and keep their heat out of the house, or will centralite throw a fit. The garage will get pretty warm and humid, so that isn't a perfect situation either. How much heat do these panels produce?? If I put them in an equipment closet inside, will that closet get hot?? I have a lot of other equipment I need to put in there too, and none of it wants to be hot either. Cold weather here is not severe, normally no lower than the teens.

I have a couple of suggestions here.

If possible, do a zoned HVAC system. Yes, they do cost more, but you can save the cost by not cooling zones not being used. And use a Varible Speed Air Handler and 2 stage compressor. We just installed a zoned system with the VSAH and 2 stage compressor and the house is much more comfortable at 72 than it was at 69 with the old system since the 2 stage helps reduce the humidity much better.

Also, if possible, put all your equipment in a closet and have the HVAC contractor run you an air vent in there to help cool the equipment. We ran our bypass from the zoned system to the garage as a dump zone and it keeps the garage nice and cool. But we could have just as easily run the bypass to an equipment closet. (The bypass is used when you have excess air in the system not going to the zones. Our bypass is used when either or both of the bedroom zones are calling, but not the main zones.)

 

[kayemsi]

We installed a LJ 48 and a LJ24. We planned to tie them together by hooking each system to the security/automation panel. We got the equipment before we found out that the security panel can only talk to one centralite system (The installer was told by Centralite that this was doable before we bought). We have been told we can hook up the LJ24 to the LJ48 and have a button or scene on the LJ48 send a rs232 message to the LJ24 to control a scene or load. Not ideal, and they don't know status of each other. Still looking for the best way to make this work when the house is complete. We would like to control and get status of all the main systems in the house via touchscreens from a PC based automation control system (CQC), but need a centralite driver for that which does not exist. Normally one would hook up the centralite system an ELK or HAI Omni and then CQC would control the lights thru the exisitng security/automation driver.

The electrican found that we could not use all 48 and 24 loads, even though each proposed load was under the allowable wattage, the max amps per module caused him to have to combine and use (for instance) 3 of the 4 "loads" on a module for a single circuit. Our LV installer had the electrician put the 3 centralite cans in the central wiring / automation / whole house audio closet. We installed a thermostatically controlled exhaust fan, but the builder did not want to put in a HVAC duct as it would blow hot air in there in the winter.

We got europa style keypads (as that was what came in the kit our installer got from his distributors close out sale). Each kit had (I think) 5-2button, 6-4button, and 5-6button keypads. I have not seen them since they first came in as the installer has them until the house is ready for them.

I maybe wrong but I think that when you combine 2 LJ24s to make a LJ48, you are left with only the 30 scenes that a LJ24 would have, because now it only has one fully functional brain (MCP).

 

[ctay]

I maybe wrong but I think that when you combine 2 LJ24s to make a LJ48, you are left with only the 30 scenes that a LJ24 would have, because now it only has one fully functional brain (MCP).

I just called Centralite to confirm and you are right. You only get 30 scenes with the LiteJet 48.

Edited my post above....

 

[Mark]

All,

I really have enjoyed reading your responses today to my questions. You cannot know how much you have helped.

It appears that I may still be able to use the litejet48, but with some pretty severe limitations. I guess it depends on how many loads I end up with. I will try to sit down and get a rough count of that number soon.


ctay... Thanks for explaining the fan control thing better to me. I will probably have to revise my original thoughts on using regular load positions on fans. Kind of silly to waste the loads you have with fans. I could also certainly hardwire the fans in the kids room and vent fans in the bath to a regular switch to save loads and also romex money... Thanks also for checking with Centralite regarding the 30 scene limit. Some of those scenes would be global in nature... "all off" all on, etc. But I still think that 30 scenes and 192 buttons is pretty light for a fairly large house.


kayemsi... I think you have a big problem trying to control 3 panels, probably a big struggle to find a solution, unless you can zone those loads out fairly creatively based on what your programming for scenes. I would like to know how that turns out... Bottom line lesson here for me, is that this is one more reason for me to probably spend the bucks and go with the elegance system. From the sounds of things, though, you are a technical guru and I hope you can rig a great solution.

herdfan... yes, a zoned A/C system is in my future, kind of.... I am using insulated concrete forms for the exterior walls, polyicynene foam for a "sealed" attic system, a ground source heat pump with a desuperheater option (2speed compressor, and variable speed air), hydronic radiant floors, and an unbelieveable 3.5, maybe 4 tons of A/C on 4000 sq ft. To make a side note for all, indoor lights are killer on your cooling load... As a general rule, every 100 watt bulb you burn costs about 300 watts to operate. The difference 200 watts is for you A/C system to pull that heat out of your house. Phase control dimmers help a lot because if they dim out say 40 percent of that bulb, the heat cost at the dimmer inself is relatively low, as compared to a resistor type dimmer, which dumps the excess voltage as heat. Ie, one of the big reasons to have lighting control, so you can keep the kids lights turned off. I think you are right, just mount the cans in the garage and forget it, my electrical closet is already busy. Your system sounds interesting... What kind of climate are you in? I am guessing a hot climate from the emphasis you have put on cooling. My wife would move out if I kept the house at 69 degrees... hmmmm, there's a thought.


brotsten... Thanks for the information on your system... Sounds nice. I do have a few questions... First, is that price of $145/load buying the system through an installer, or a supplier?? Not only would I have to spend more per load for the elegance, but putting it on every load in the house would get pricey... I got a little confuzed on your description of the keypads, I think you are saying the 4 button centralite button feels pretty good, rather than the 1 button centralite. And are you saying you don't like the Lutron switches as much?? As a sidenote, the clipsal switches all look really cool. Also, did you have any difficulty during the build with contractors that need the lights on... did you rig a construction setup so they could get lights on if needed. Please let me know what you think of the system once it is up and running.

All,

I actually went onto the web and bought a centralite switch today. Just a 4 button classica in white. I really wanted to know what these things feel like and what the backs look like. So I am looking forward to that arriving.

You are all probably wondering why I haven't just gone to the local centralite store for a demonstration. Well, I am basically smack in the middle of 3 big Texas cities... San Antonio, Dallas, and Houston. It is quite a treck for me to get that done, and I need to actually research who has a system I can look at. My local A/V shop that is decent is so overpriced and snooty that it really bugs me to go in there, and they are not a centralite carrier (lutron, I think, which they get full price for as most of the people that go that route have very little clue as to the nuts and bolts of the actual system, they just want it to work, and how much does it cost...). Anyway, I would love to find a place to give me a good hands on...

Another conclusion that I can to today, while doing my quality thinking (mowing the yard). I am not too sure I want to dedicate just half of my house to a completely different wiring architecture. As weird as it may seem to some about home running the lights, weirder yet would be to just do half of the house. Again, I will count my prospective loads, but I am thinking I am leaning towards a larger system than the LiteJet48, and since I want to tweak and play with the system myself, that will probably mean the centralite elegance...

would love to hear more feedback...

Mark

 

[Steve]

Welcome to Cocoontech Mark. First I just wanted to say regardless of whether you like UPB or not, if you can afford it a hardwired system is always a better investment and I think you made a wise choise. It is a very good strategy to do mostly hardwire for critical locations and then supplemet with UPB. With that said, I wanted to comment on some of your concerns you mentioned.

First of all, I really am not that impressed with the UPB stuff that I bought, and I won't bag on any particular brand, but my experience with them is as follows...

1. They take a huge amount of box space and you really have to cram the wires into the box, which makes me nervous.

Yes, the switches are certainly bigger than a traditional switch, but they really are not much different than a traditional dimmer, Insteon or the like. They do fit fine in a standard box but if you are building new it is generally recommended to use the deep boxes. They will help regardless of what you install, but the UPB switches would be fine in either case.

2. I used the switches that you can change out the functionality and mechanism of the switch itself, and I think it feels "light", sort of hobby grade.

That is purely a personal decision and different people like it different ways. I personally prefer the lighter click than the harsher one. But anyway, the PCS and HAI switches do have a more distinct click so perhaps you would like the feel of those better.

3. A few of the switches don't respond well to a single press.

Most likely the faceplate is not seated properly. That can happen sometimes with the removeable plates. You may need to remove and reinsert it or tweak it and it should work fine.

4. The "scenes" that I programed seem to get crossed. When there are already individual lights on contained in a scene, and subsequently, you try to activate a scene, you get nothing, or an unexpected result like the whole scene turning off.

Most likely that is simply a configuration issue. UPB and UPStart is very powerful and while in general it is simple to program and use, sometimes complex controls like scenes can be tricky to setup and program just right.

5. No matter what you think in advance, when you hit a switch or button regarding a light, you expect it to happen. Nothing frustrates more than an unexpected result. Lights are not just for looks, they involve safety functions and everyday living. The UPB comes close, but 9 out of 10 isn't good enough in this department.

I agree 100% that they need to be reilable and have expected results. I'm not sure if you are referring to the 750ms delay or something else. If you are in fact referring to the slight delay when controlling a load locally from the switch, that has been improved in the latest generation switches and firmware. Otherwise I think UPB is very reliable and predictable.

Please understand I am not saying you did anything wrong or UPB is perfect, just sometimes little things like this frustrate us and in some cases there are easy solutions that are only seen with experience.

Good luck with your design!

 

[brotsten]

brotsten... Thanks for the information on your system... Sounds nice. I do have a few questions... First, is that price of $145/load buying the system through an installer, or a supplier?? Not only would I have to spend more per load for the elegance, but putting it on every load in the house would get pricey... I got a little confuzed on your description of the keypads, I think you are saying the 4 button centralite button feels pretty good, rather than the 1 button centralite. And are you saying you don't like the Lutron switches as much?? As a sidenote, the clipsal switches all look really cool. Also, did you have any difficulty during the build with contractors that need the lights on... did you rig a construction setup so they could get lights on if needed. Please let me know what you think of the system once it is up and running.

That price was from an installer, I believe that is the only way you can get the Elegance hardware. List price was ~ $230 per load.

You grasped my meaning of the switches. I think the difference is the long span of the single switch. The actual switch is the same size in all the configurations, just the number of switches changes. With the single button, it has to span the entire length of the Decora opening. The double button only spans half as much, and so on. It makes them feel a little different, I would say the single button feels different then the 2,3 & 4.

As far as the Lutron goes, no, I was trying to say that Centralite mounts their switches on a Lutron Decora Plate.

Construction lighting was never an issue, my wife is the General on the house. They all have extension cords and lights, they are used to it! OTOH, Centralite has some tools for operating the panel without a computer or switches, but I don't know what the costs are. I initially setup one switch to turn on all the lights to check them. I also counseled the electricians about not shorting the relays while they were working.

I need to take some new pictures, I'm a little behind. Here is an early shot of the Centralite 48 load panel.

Brian

 

[Mark]

Steve,

I am glad you responded. You remind me that I actually need to spend some more time trying to tweak out the bugs in my system. I suspect I can work some of the bugs out...

I do suffer from boxes that aren't too big. What really hurt, is that if you are wiring into a 3 gang switch, the electrician has half the romex in the house in there, including feeds for other outlets, lights, and fans. I was scared that in pushing all that back in there, and adding the upb switches and their leads, something would end up touching something it shouldn't.

Here is another question, if you don't mind... What happens when I have a scene that has a fairly slow fade rate, say, 30 seconds, then I try to execute another scene? Can the commands execute at the same time?

I really DO like the button configuration idea. You can have a switch that looks like a switch, and you can have buttons that activate scenes, all on the same panel. It is very slick. And the greatest button of all is the one that turns all the lights out. In a retrofit, it is probably the best you can do, but now I have had a taste of lighting control, I want more and better. Babysitters and houseguest never had trouble using my lights, but they never once used the scenes.

Just doesn't work as good as I had hoped.

thanks for the motivation to get my laptop back out and tinker... I will try to let you know what I find out.

Mark

 

[Mark]

Brosten,

I had already checked out your pictures. I love your lot...that view is incredible, and your house looks exceptional. You should be proud, and your wife did a good job.

I am glad you warned me about not shorting out the loads during install. Good info. Can I just keep the breakers off on the feeds the whole time until I am ready to power it up?? I guess that would be good practice anyway.

I should thank you for keeping an awesome photo record of your construction and sharing it. I hope to do the same...

Cheers,
Mark

 

[Herdfan]

herdfan... ....... To make a side note for all, indoor lights are killer on your cooling load... As a general rule, every 100 watt bulb you burn costs about 300 watts to operate. The difference 200 watts is for you A/C system to pull that heat out of your house. ... What kind of climate are you in? I am guessing a hot climate from the emphasis you have put on cooling. My wife would move out if I kept the house at 69 degrees... hmmmm, there's a thought.

To add to the notion that lighting creates a heat load on the house, so do plasma TV's. I got my plasma last spring when it was still cool outside. When summer came, it must have added 5 degrees to the room it was in. And with my daughter home from school, it was on quite a bit. Then just as the sun was going down and the A/C was catching up the heat of the day, it was on and fighting the cooling process. You could walk by and feel the heat coming off of it. Next time I will spend the extra for an LCD.

Of course my wife loved it in the winter. We used to fight over the temperature of the house, but then our daughter is hot natured like me, so my wife gave up and puts on sweats.

I live in WV near the OH/KY borders. Summer heat gets in the 90's (It is over 90 today) with 60-80% humidity, so a good A/C is a must.

One other note that I don't think I have seen mentioned is a hybrid lighting system. I know Lutron does and I think Centralite does allow you to combine their hardwired system with their wireless system. So you could hardwire the critical lights and use the wireless in non-critical areas. I have a Lutron Homeworks Wireless system and I have yet to have a glitch, so higher end wireless it pretty reliable.

 

[Spanky]

The Centralite Elegance system is at the top of the list for the ELK Technology Demonstration house.

I am sure feature creep will go into the M1 to Centralite interface.

 

[brotsten]

I am sure feature creep will go into the M1 to Centralite interface.

Right on!