Coffee maker noise on AC line

[mikefamig]

I recently installed two SA UPB switches and upstart software. The first thing that I noticed was that the signal bar at the bottom of the upstart screen would go from no noise to full scale red and back to no noise in 20 second cycles.......20 seconds red, 20 seconds blank 20 seconds red and so on.
 
I thought about what sort of device is in the house that would have such short power cycles and it hit me right off to look at the coffee pot. We have a Bunn My Cafe k-cup brewer that keeps a little water warm all day and sure enough as soon as I unplugged it the noise disappeared. I repeated this test three or four times with the same results.
 
I just thought that this info could help someone else and would be interested to hear if anyone else has experienced the same.
 
Mike.
 
 
 
 

 

[pete_c]

Thanks Mike.
 
Curious if you noticed the generated powerline noise affecting other UPB devices in your home?

 

[mikefamig]

Thanks Mike.
 
Curious if you noticed the generated powerline noise affecting other UPB devices in your home?

I haven't used the two UPB switches enough to say how it is affecting them except to say that when the signal bar was full red, one of the switches stopped responding to on/off commands from upstart. I just now installed an inverted SA phase coupler today but it is Halloween and my wife needs my services with pumpkins and things.
 
I did move the coffee pot from room to room to put it on different circuits. I wanted to see if the noise followed the device or might be a problem with the outlet that it was plugged into. The noise occurred regardless of where I plugged the coffee pot.
 
Mike.

 

[ano]

UPB signals are sent as a series if electrical pulses on the powerline.  What I think your coffee maker is likely doing it turning on and off the heating element at a very fast rate, not the 20 seconds on and off but likely rapid on and off cycles within each 20 second cycle.  If you want your UPB to be reliable you will need to filter it or buy another brand of coffee maker.  Simply Automated, PCS and a few other make UPB filters, or if you and handy you can make one yourself with a few parts.  Its almost best to filter noise at the source rather than deal with it later.  I would also send a letter to the manufacturer and complain.  These companies know their devices make noise, but they don't want to spend the money to filter it themselves.  Chances are this device will cause noise in other areas as well, like AM radio, and possibly any audio device in general. 

 

[mikefamig]

UPB signals are sent as a series if electrical pulses on the powerline.  What I think your coffee maker is likely doing it turning on and off the heating element at a very fast rate, not the 20 seconds on and off but likely rapid on and off cycles within each 20 second cycle. 

I'm sure that the load from the coffee pot was rising and falling at the same intervals as the noise because I put a KILL-A-WATT  watt meter on teh coffe pot and watched the wattage rise and fall with the noise meter. It is not exactly 20 seconds but it is intervals of noise and quite that last several seconds.
 

If you want your UPB to be reliable you will need to filter it or buy another brand of coffee maker.  Simply Automated, PCS and a few other make UPB filters, or if you and handy you can make one yourself with a few parts.  Its almost best to filter noise at the source rather than deal with it later.  I would also send a letter to the manufacturer and complain.  These companies know their devices make noise, but they don't want to spend the money to filter it themselves.  Chances are this device will cause noise in other areas as well, like AM radio, and possibly any audio device in general. 

Yes I think that a plug-in filter is the answer.
 
Mike.

 

[pete_c]

Today I do not see any noise on my UPB stuff.  I do not have any UPB filters in place.
 
Latest coffee pot here is one with a metal carafe going back to a retro look.  I drink coffee only in the morning and do not utilize the timer on it.  Checked this morning and do not see any UPB noise on the wire when switching on or off.
 
Years ago though did get a signal sucking something or another on my UPB network while concurrently a new inground pool was installed next door.  My guess at the time was pool pump / mickey mouse electrical installation. 
 
Whatever it was, I installed a UPB repeater to replace the phase coupler that was installed and everything worked fine afterwards.
 
Looked at my UPB PIMs this morning.  I have one connected to the Leviton HAI OPII panel, one to Homeseer in the com room on two separate circuits adjacent to each other near the fuse panel.  I have another one on the second floor at the furthest point away from the electrical fuse panel connected to a Quatech serial server which use to look at signals and a USB UPB floater which I use connected to my laptop.  Note that I do not need the 3rd and 4th UPB PIM; rather they are just spares.
 
Relating to holiday lighting stuff (mostly the Christmas lighting) tried UPB, Insteon and Z-Wave; it was all too much work for temporary lighting for me.  I did also have issues with multiple 1000 watt commercial lighting transformers and fell back to using X-10 on those too.  Today though have converted all of my old outdoor LV lighting to 12VDC / LEDs and using DIN power supplies on one UPB in wall switch.
 
I have gone back to using X-10 indoor appliance / lighting modules and outdoor Black and Decker X-10 lighting modules for the holiday lighting.  Personally its just fast and easy.  I set one code / two codes for the entire home and it works just fine.  To test outdoor lighting I just utilize an old X10 palm pad connecting to a W800. (W800 antenna is in the attic).
 
I do not have any X-10 filters in place either and have good reach everywhere using Jeff Volp's dual phased TW-523 on the Leviton HAI OPII panel and older XTB amplifier for my CM11A stuff.
 
IE: I put a little 120 VAC candle in every window of the home is just one of the holiday lighting effects.  I have too gone to using LED lighting and back to incandescent lighting and now playing with LV LED lighting relating to see if I can wirelessly control it.  I have a couple of windows not near any outlets.   Last year played a bit with using EL outdoor LV lighting.  I did try some very cheap 120 VAC very bright LED lighting last year.  I did modify the controller as I didn't want any blinking (soldering it to the ON position). 

 

[mikefamig]

Today I do not see any noise on my UPB stuff.  I do not have any UPB filters in place.
 
Latest coffee pot here is one with a metal carafe going back to a retro look.  I drink coffee only in the morning and do not utilize the timer on it.  Checked this morning and do not see any UPB noise on the wire when switching on or off.
 
Years ago though did get a signal sucking something or another on my UPB network while concurrently a new inground pool was installed next door.  My guess at the time was pool pump / mickey mouse electrical installation. 
 
Whatever it was, I installed a UPB repeater to replace the phase coupler that was installed and everything worked fine afterwards.
 
Relating to holiday lighting stuff (mostly the Christmas lighting) tried UPB, Insteon and Z-Wave; it was all too much work for temporary lighting for me.  I did also have issues with multiple 1000 watt commercial lighting transformers and fell back to using X-10 on those too.  Today though have converted all of my old outdoor LV lighting to 12VDC / LEDs and using DIN power supplies on one UPB in wall switch.
 
I have gone back to using X-10 indoor appliance / lighting modules and outdoor Black and Decker X-10 lighting modules for the holiday lighting.  Personally its just fast and easy.  I set one code / two codes for the entire home and it works just fine. 
 
IE: I put a little 120 VAC candle in every window of the home is just one of the holiday lights.  I have too gone to using LED lighting and back to incandescent lighting and now playing with LV LED lighting relating to see if I can wirelessly control it.  I have a couple of windows not near any outlets. 

I've ignored the x-10 capability on my elk up until now but  need to learn about it. Are the outlets and things any less expensive than UPB devices? And how are they simpler than UPB? Aren't x-10 devices controlled similarly to upb?
 
Mike.

 

[pete_c]

I couldn't say about current pricing on X10 stuff as I had started with this in the late 1970's.  I still have some older BSR and Radio Shack and Leviton X10 things.  (box o X10 modules - many collected over the years).
 
I think that today you can purchase X10 switches cheap.  Not sure if you can purchase used Black and Decker outdoor X10 modules anymore.
 
That said I used to have in wall outlets automated and removed them all in the older home.  In the current home many of the outlets (IE: all of the bedrooms and many rooms on the first floor) are 1/2 switched by wall switches (with UPB today).  Still have issues with that stuff (cleaning folks plugging in vacuum cleaners into UPB switched outlets - marked them all).
 
I do not use X10 for any in wall lighting switches today.  (removed all of the older Insteon stuff a couple of years ago).
 
I had switched over from X10 to Insteon and controlled the Insteon switches with an X10 controller on my OPII panel and Insteon via Homeseer in the early 2000's.  Worked fine for me (for a couple of years).
 
Black and Decker Freewire outdoor lighting module picture.
 

 
Yup X10 configuration and control is way easier.  You just turn the dial on the device that you want to utilize and set a house code.  What is neat for the holiday lighting is that I use only one-two house codes and all of the lights go on at the same time.  No delays (actually faster than Z-Wave).
 
Test it yourself sometime....put an X10 switch, UPB switch, Z-Wave Switch and Zigbee switch on side by side circuits and turn them all on at once.  See which one responds the quickest; you will be surprised.
 
This past summer I was going to connect my new weather radio directly to the OPII panel for alerts.  I went to using a DS10 wireless X10 device.  Works well with my OPII Panel and Homeseer box.  I put the radio in the attic and do have a chase from the attic to the basement com room to go to wire if I want to.  The Homeseer software weather alert stuff gets very granular and I build a number of events per alert using this and that.  The OPII panel weather alert stuff is much simpler and works fine.

 

[BLH]

X10 Wireless Technologies went bankrupt awhile back.
Authinx Inc. Has taken over the X10  and X10Pro product lines.
The X10WTI great package deals are gone and the prices have been adjusted to a more profitable level.

 

[mikefamig]

I was just thinking about noise filters and it led to another question. Do UPB AC outlets filter noise? I'm thinking that I can replace the coffee pot outlet and maybe kill two birds with one stone by turning it on and off via elk rules saving electricity and also remove the noise/interference  when making coffee.
 
Mike.

 

[pete_c]

Do UPB AC outlets filter noise?

 
Not that I am aware of.  Looking at the datasheet for the SA URD; I do not see a mention of a built in choke.
 
Thinking you can get an inline PCS filter that will fit in the electrical outlet (maybe).  PCS inline choke (ILC).
 

 

The model URD-30 delivers on/off control for appliances, fan/pump motors and lights (see model UML, dimming incandescent lamps). It is available in four standard colors, white, almond light almond and ivory and includes a matching wall-plate. Installation is simple: the module wires into a standard 120 VAC outlet / junction box. The appliance, motor or light to be controlled is plugged into the top receptacle. The connected appliance can be manually controlled by a UPB switch, remote switch or multi-button controller, or automatically with a scheduler (model UCS-01), I/O module (model UMI) or with any PC / security / home automation controller that provides a UPB serial driver option (see FAQ for a current listing).

 
For my newer LV outdoor lighting stuff I built a setup using conduit and multiple outlets in boxes plus one box with a UPB relay wall switch in it.  The switch controls about 1/2 of the outlets.  The multiple DIN 12VDC power supplies do not generate any noise that I can see.  Here in testing this did try a switched automated outlet; looked and worked fine for me.
 
Thanks for the X10 information BLH. 
 
I probably have enough X-10 stuff in my box o X10 to have an X10 store these days....having started with this stuff back in the late 1970's.

 

[mikefamig]

Not that I am aware of.  Looking at the datasheet for the SA URD; I do not see a mention of a built in choke.
 
Thinking you can get an inline PCS filter that will fit in the electrical outlet (maybe).  PCS inline choke (ILC).
 

UPBILC.jpg
 
 
Thanks for the X10 information BLH. 
 
I probably have enough X-10 stuff in my box o X10 to have an X10 store these days....having started with this stuff back in the late 1970's.

 
Is that ILC basically a capacitor attached to ground that shunts a frequency range to earth? I like that it may fit int he outlet box. I rather not have another wal wart.
 
Mike.

 

[pete_c]

Looks like it to me.  I have never tried one though. 
 
Guessing some UPB person here on the forum has done a DIY substitution of the choke.
 
Today wife has a "trinket" glass and wood piece of furniture.  (we also have some 6 wood and glass shelves with doors and in case and over case lighting built in).  I am using UPB lighting modules on top of these cabinets.  Outlets are behind them and the cabinets cannot be moved my myself; way too heavy these days.  Thinking now that one set of cabinets is using a switched by a dual load wall switch multiple toggle outlet to switch thing set up.
 
I did have to add electric (conduit) in one part of the house (well corner in one hallway) which was a real PITA to do just to illuminate the case (it was a WAF thing).
 
Looking at the kitchen counter stuff this morning noticed that I did put one UPB switch in one outlet double box (they all are) with an outlet.  That said the switch today just works the HV lighting over the grill on the deck.  I could probably switch the switch to a dual load multiple paddle switch to switch the outlet as the coffee pot today is plugged in below.  The kitchen counter HV outets are about every 2-3 feet along the counter tops. (counted 9 outlets along two counters this morning).  The island has its own electric along with two other autonomous kitchen counters.
 
I do today have HV UPB switches on the deck mostly relating to cooking stuff near the grill and attached to house lighting over the deck plus utilize LED lighting for subtle illumination on the deck today.  Thinking about it more; the deck and the kitchen are automation zones (audo, video, HV, LV, et al stuff today).

 

[RAL]

I've ignored the x-10 capability on my elk up until now but  need to learn about it. Are the outlets and things any less expensive than UPB devices? And how are they simpler than UPB? Aren't x-10 devices controlled similarly to upb?
 
Mike.

 
 
X10 stuff is much less expensive than UPB.  Roughly $20 to $25 for a new in-wall AC receptacle or light switch.  Although X10 and UPB both transmit control information over the power line, they use different methods to do it. X10 devices are somewhat simpler than UPB devices in that they don't support stuff like scenes and links. Just simple on/off and dim up/down commands.  But for many applications, that's good enough.