Confirm My Understanding...

[davidliles]

I've been doing a lot of reading here lately and feel I'm ready to start my endeavor...
 
With this post I ask those who respond to please confirm or correct my understanding so far from what I've been reading....
 
Back story... we are in a two-story house with all bedrooms on the second floor. The wife recently had signed a two year contract with ADT so we're stuck with the current alarm configuration for another 18 months.
 
From what I've read it seems a multi-technology configuration is desired/required depending on the ultimate HA goal. All I ask of those who reply is to provide a supporting explanation and not just "I use such-and-such product..."
 
So... since we're stuck with ADT for another 18 months the alarm aspect is off the table for now and the one bit of advice I picked up on early was to pick one aspect of HA and get stable with that before tackling another area...
 
Ultimately I want to replace the ADT box and am leaning toward Elk... if after reading my other goals if there is something else I should consider please let me know.
 
My first area of focus will be lighting since it appears to be the "simplest" and most straight forward. After lighting I would like to integrate home theater, door locks, ceiling fans, door bell sensor, garage, possibly sprinkler and finally alarm. I will want to create various scenes for the different lifestyle scenarios. I'm thinking Insteon for some and Z-wave or ZigBee for other aspect and for home theater I'm basically in the dark there.
 
What I'm thinking based on what I've been reading so far is that I should have light switches on one technology and maybe outlets on the same depending on the total number of each so I don't run into an issue of too much chatter which would result in communication reliability issues.
 
For lighting control I was thinking of an Insteon ISY-994 but I haven't been able to figure out if I should go the basic or Pro route... opinions please. This would eventually be integrated into the Elk panel when the ADT system is replaced.
 
Here is a simple example I'd like to implement... Monday - Friday when the wife gets up should goes down stairs, turns the kitchen light on and starts coffee (Keurig) and then goes back up stairs and get the girls clothes together for the day.
 
I was thinking i could use a motion detector toward the base of the stairs so if after X time in the morning if motion is detected the kitchen lights will turn on and stay on until x time and then shut off.
 
Advice, criticism, constructive jabs all welcome... let it fly..... thanks.

 

[pete_c]

I am still sort of on the fence relating to the lighting technology; leaning a bit mostly towards UPB.
 
Historically started with X10 around 1978.  I then implemented Insteon; then UPB; then Z-Wave.  Today all the inwall switches in metal cans with metal conduit are UPB.  I still have X10, Insteon and Z-Wave devices and multiple controllers for said devices.
 
You should have done a google search on complaints relating to ADT service contracts, cancellation fees, raising your rates, signing you up up for extended contracts without notification, complaints to local BBB's and how high the stacks of ADT complaints are in your local state attorney generals office et al before signing up with ADT. 
 
They do have nice commercials on TV.
 
Personally (and this is me) I would ...
 
<I deleted the rest of this post relating to ADT/Tyco...>
 
I tried the whole automated light thing with the motion detector and automated lights thing with my wife...it didn't work; in fact she asked me to turn it off
 
WAF is a high concern when automating different things in the house - its always a question of logic - with a question of "why?".
 
IE: say you are automating two switches in one room.  Its a DIY such that the cost is minimal.  (relatively writing)
 
I always just mention the $2 switch at Home depot with a little added intelligence at a minimal but unmentioned cost. 
 
Your wife will question the logic of a $100 switch versus the $2 switch at Home Depot, or two or three or four of these.  (or 20, 40 or 60 of these). 

 

[davidliles]

Appreciate the reply pete_c...
 
Regarding the ADT situation, the wife did that while I was out of the area for a while... I back home and what is done is done.... she didn't research, just when with what she saw....
 
As for the WAF concern regarding cost, this is my project so it shouldn't be an issue.
 
You mentioned you're leaning toward UPB but didn't indicate why... care to be a little bit more vague?

 

[pete_c]

BTW; welcome to CocoonTech David.  Great bunch of folks here that will answer your questions.  Also have a read up on the various topics relating to automation and specific endeavors documented by many individuals.  
 
Personally I do not like RF in general for automation; historically having done some work in it; its not always a sure "bet" and can be somewhat magical sometimes.  But its easy.  (like wireless security devices when you can't run wires).
 
That said not really too impressed with the layered wireless meshing of Z-Wave (personal opinion) with Z-Wave wired and Z-Wave wireless devices.
 
Routing algorithms/tables are complex enough; adding wireless with battery routing tables to the mix literally can cause havoc. 
 
But that is my opinion. 
 
I do have three Z-Wave "test" networks up. 
 
Two I do not see much relating to diagnostics and they just work; so I do not pay attention.  One I do see diagnostics and the health of the wireless network and do not like what I see; hence my comments.
 
I had to put one Z-Wave controller on the second floor of my home such that it could reach all of the devices I had in place.  The other two are in the basement next to metal conduit and working well with good footprints inside and outside of the house (brick).
 
The hybrid combo of wireless with wired meshing relating to Insteon is better.
 
The UPB devices I have in place are doing well these days. 
 
The original transition though years ago was to move from X-10 to Insteon.  Geez what a great idea to create a switch that worked both with X-10 and a newer powerline protocal.
 
It worked OK for a bit of time; then it did not and I switched over to UPB.
 
I have a UPB repeater and UPB phase coupler in place.  I utilize Upstart to configure the switches and as a diagonostic tool.  Mostly like it because it utilizes the powerline effectively working well just about 100% of the time.
 
Recently I have upgraded many UPB switches to multitoggle and dual load switches reducing my light switch footprint a bit.
 
Best to just continue asking questions and reading a bunch. 
 
Most folks using whatever technologies are pretty happy with their picks and have become "gurus" relating to their configurations and diagnostics.  So here you are reading my personal opinions and why. 
 
I have recently done a retro upgrade to my X-10 stuff adding a dual phased X-10 on steroids blaster of sorts which is working well today. 
 
There will be more forthcoming from many folks here on the forum.

 

[dgage]

Welcome David. As Pete said, there are many great people on this forum with vast amounts of experience that they actively share. I came to this board for a security upgrade but ended up starting with lighting during a kitchen remodel.

Regarding lighting technologies, I went with Lutron RadioRa2, which is pseudo-DIY. If you want to know more about it or my comparison to Zwave and UPB, do a search on RadioRa2 as I have compared the 3 in multiple discussions.

And unlike Pete, some of the motion sensors and other automated lighting I put up were absolutely loved by my wife.

David

 

[Neurorad]

You needed an alarm immediately. ADT is a fine interim solution that will allow you to research a proper DIY replacement. No trouble there, don't blame the wife. It will take you a good bit of time to research, configure, and install a new alarm.

Don't buy anything until it's time to install it. Tech changes rapidly.

I chose Lutron RA2 because of the quality of the hardware. Replacing my alarm is in my future as well (Elk M1).

 

[davidliles]

Thanks for the replies...
 
pete_c - I've seen several others indicate using UPB but I need to read up on it more.
 
dgage & Neurorad - I've read on here that you need to go through some training before being able to purchase RadioRa2 products and I've looked at RadioRa2 on the Lutron web site but wasn't able to find info about the training prerequisite or item prices.
 
I'm in no rush to make purchases so time is on my side, I just want to try and select solutions that can be integrated together without resulting in an obvious clunky system to configure, maintain and operate.

 

[dgage]

Here is a link to the Lutron Blast information.
http://resi.lutron.com/Portals/4/Training/3682540b%20Blast%20sellsheet.pdf

I'm able to get my RadioRa2 at dealer cost so I'm not positive about regular costs. I believe there is a dealer out west I've seen mentioned a few times on here/AVSforum that gives good prices.

 

[az1324]

I'm able to get my RadioRa2 at dealer cost

 
You just made a lot of new friends.

 

[tmbrown97]

I use UPB - you can read a lot about it from the link in my signature...  I've been following this board for a number of years and at the time that I made the decision, Insteon was (and still is) single vendor and they were having quality issues at the time.  I've read a lot of stories about people with Z-Wave having to rebuild their network constantly; I really like the flexibility of the Simply Automated switches so that's what I went with, and I've loved them.... more so when I read of others' horror stories.

 

[drozwood90]

I went with UPB.  I tried Insteon and at the time, it was when they were having issues.  I believe most if not all of those issues are resolved, but I already had $3K invest in UPB...so I was not switching back.  I use Hardwired motions, some wireless X10 (as Pete mentioned, in some places it is just easier to use those then pull a new wire).  I tried Z-Wave and having worked with 30Mhz-2.4Ghz for work...and knowing WHAT Z-Wave's frequencies were...decided against it.
 
I use Homeseer, so I am not AGAINST Z-Wave or other technologies, they are just not the BASE of my system.  All my lighting switches are UPB.  I have Z-Wave locks, but ever since I put in my deep freeze, I lost communications with my front Door Locks.  Kind of annoying.  Eventually I'll move the Z-Stick closer, or with the new HS3, I can just get a second stick and put it closer (leaving the original where it is).  The problem with Z-Wave is the Mesh.  When the mesh changes, you can have major issues.  Of course that is also it's power, the mesh should be able to account for changes through having multiple routing paths.  However, because of how your house is physically layed out you might end up with a SINGLE node as the routing point between 10's or 20's+ of switches.  In my case, to get "some" level of connection to the front door lock, I had to add 3 more plug in modules.  Kind of crazy, but the freezer  does a good job of blocking the Z-Wave so I had to route around the freezer.
 
If I move the zwave interface stick, I should be able to eliminate that as a problem.  I've also been told that if my network gets larger, it could account for my issues.  I've got UPB, I am not interested in making my network HUGE.  Plus, instant status for Z-wave costs almost as much as UPB.  That is, status from local control.  For UPB, all my switches tell the controller if they were locally changes.  Z-Wave tends to require polling.  If it takes over 15 minutes to cycle through all the switches, it's possible you won't know the status of that switch for over 15 minutes.  Or longer (30 switches being polled at 15-45 seconds each).
 
UPB, well, I read here and there people have some noise issues - generally resolved with using other versions of UPB (Gen2 or 3?).  I use Gen1. and could not be happier.  They cost a bit less and I've not had any issues with anything connected in my house.  However, looking at the vast majority of people, UPB just works.  I can move modules around and they just work.  As long as they are plugged in, they just work.  Z-wave, every time I move around my outside modules, I have to optimize the network.  Kind of annoying.
 
I would mention RadioRA, but at the time, when I picked UPB, it was barely coming out, and doing what I do for a living, I tend to stay away from RF stuff due to knowing what it takes to make Wireless 100% reliable...and I'll say, HA stuff does NOT account for that.
 
UPB has fewer "options", Z-wave has lots of "options".  I mean, UPB has indoor plugin modules.  UPB has wall switches (with tons of features).  Z-wave has switches, modules, outdoor modules, shade controllers, door locks, thermostats, etc...etc.  So, I think you need to decide what your BASE technology is (I recomemnd something that is RELIABLE!).  Then add on other technologies to get the best of all of them.  That is the power of a software based home automation controller [Homeseer (vists this forum here and there, but has their own super helpful forum), Elve (can not comment no experience), C2C (Dean R.  - author frequents this forum), Premise (free, activly supported on this forum), etc.]. 
 
--Dan

 

[davidliles]

Dan - 
 
Thanks for the informative and detailed reply. As I've been continuing my reading here I'm leaning more toward the UPB route for all the reasons you and several others have indicated.
 
Question for you... what does your HA environment consist of beyond what you've mentioned above? Your post indicates you are using a software based controller, did you ever consider a hardware controller such as Elk or HAI? If so, what persuaded you opt for the software route?

 

[drozwood90]

I went with software Vs. hard because I wanted the flexibility of it.  There are plugins for software controllers to interface with things like the Elk, so you can blend the best of everything.
 
Say, run the ELK for security and critical lighting, then have the software controller do the more complicated things (occupancy, etc.).  I think of my controller more as a monitor with guidance.  I.e. if my Homeseer server goes down, we do not lose manual functionality in the house, only the conviences it provides (auto door locking at night, monitoring the garage door's status, did the garbage get taken out to the curb the might before, etc.).
 
--Dan

 

[electron]

Dan - 
 
Thanks for the informative and detailed reply. As I've been continuing my reading here I'm leaning more toward the UPB route for all the reasons you and several others have indicated.
 
Question for you... what does your HA environment consist of beyond what you've mentioned above? Your post indicates you are using a software based controller, did you ever consider a hardware controller such as Elk or HAI? If so, what persuaded you opt for the software route?

Many of us use a combination of hardware + software.  In most scenarios, we rely on the hardware controller/alarm panel for the critical functionality (alarm, lighting, hvac), while the software takes care of the more advanced features, but isn't required for a smooth home operation.