CQC Automation and House Remodel -- I need to choose a thermostat ( RCS-2000 / Aprilaire 8870 )

[Deephaven]

Background:
Currently I am running CQC as an entertainment and lighting controller but am ready to jump into temperature control and security.

My furnace is on its last legs and with the advent of the tax break, I'd like to replace it. Considering this is upcoming I thought it was a logical time to invest in Thermostats and replace my 1974 vintage analog units. My eventual goal will be to integrate with an Omni or an Elk and potentially if there are large differences in the thermostat and zone control possibilities this could lead me to choose the panel that integrates the best.

Along with my furnace I have a zone controller. It is an old Temp Troll unit that isn't effectively installed and doesn't work. The furnace, thermostat and zone controller install will all come together. Followed by a security panel install.

After some exhaustive searching on the site, I still have some open questions these are:
1) Do I need to pull wires for using the above thermostats. It seems to me from perusing install manuals that I will need both the current wiring (for power) and a Cat5, but in neither install manual is this made clear. Obviously being a remodel it would be better if the thermostat only required power and a 2 wire RS-485 as I wouldn't have to figure out how to fish wires to my thermostat install locations.
2) Zone controllers: currently I have an electrically actuated system. A local furnace installer has recommended installing the Arzel pneumatic ones. These are expensive, but he claims they work really well. Is this a logical solution or are there potentially equal solutions that are more cost effective? Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
3) Do either of the systems allow me to not need the zone controller from Arzel (or other)? ie can I control the whole furnace and zone system with only the thermostat and security panel. If so is this a logical method of control or what has worked best for the rest of you?
4) Any logical arguments to make me lean towards the Omni or the Elk based on HVAC control would be helpful as well.

--I have a dual stage furnace, 3 zones (6 dampers), and most likely in the next few years will also install a heat pump so my choice must be flexible enough to control it all. A 4th zone may be added in the future, but it also might just be a damper addition to one of the other zones.

 

[sic0048]

I'd recommend that you look at the RCS thermostats. The CQC driver is very full featured and allows control of pretty much any thermostat capability. I actually think the RCS driver is better and has more features exposed to the end user than the HAI or other thermostats. RCS makes the TR-16, TR-40 (this has been replaced now) and a newer TR-60 (replacing the TR-40). They also make zone systems that use the same thermostats, so you don't have to replace equipment if you want to add a zone controller in the future.

Even better, an EBay seller is getting rid of the older (but VERY capable) TR-40 thermostats. You can pick them up for about $75 each (or less). I guarantee there is no more capable thermostat for less than $200 out there.

I started out getting a TR-16 on sale for $125 and thought I had stole it. I actually purchases a couple of the TR-40's on Ebay because the price is too good to pass up.

There is no technical difference between the TR-16 and TR-40 thermostats. The TR-40 thermostats have the bigger display and you can do more things at the thermostat. With the TR-16 you have to hook it up to the computer to get a lot of the features. If you are using CQC, you'll be doing that anyway.

PS - I forgot one of the most important reasons to look at these thermostats - they use the regular 4 wire thermostat wire that you house probably already has. There is a brain that sits at the HVAC unit that you need to run a serial cable to, but the wire between the brain and the wall unit is simply a normal 4 wire. It makes remodeling to these units extremely easy.

 

[PaulD]

Installation ans set up manuals for HAI thermostats are HERE. Should provide you all the technical info related to the RC2000. I have 2 of them in my house and am happy with them.

 

[AceCannon]

I am using 4 Aprilaire 8870's without a problem thus far. I got them all wired up and talking to my Elk (and therefore CQC) on the first attempt without problems. Thoughts:

1. You need cat5e to each Tstat for the 8870's (this is very clear in the installation manual)
2. There is a zone controller for Aprilaire, but I do not think it works at present with the Elk (not sure about HAI, but I don't think so either)
3. The Elk can change the stats based on events in the house (set back at preset times, or change setpoints when arming or disarming the system)
4. The CQC driver for the Elk has everything needed to talk to Elk-connected tstats. Once it is working with the Elk, you will be able to see them with CQC.
5. I have 2-stage furnaces. All A/C's are 1 stage except my 5-ton which is 2 stage cooling. The 8870 handles all this without a prob. It also can do heat pumps.
6. If you were so inclined, you could ditch your zone controller and control the dampers with relays via an Elk panel. There are threads around regarding this, but obviously in would require lots of rules, etc. If you just wanted to manually turn off airflow to individual rooms, it would be pretty easy.

 

[Deephaven]

I'd recommend that you look at the RCS thermostats. The CQC driver is very full featured and allows control of pretty much any thermostat capability. I actually think the RCS driver is better and has more features exposed to the end user than the HAI or other thermostats. RCS makes the TR-16, TR-40 (this has been replaced now) and a newer TR-60 (replacing the TR-40). They also make zone systems that use the same thermostats, so you don't have to replace equipment if you want to add a zone controller in the future.

PS - I forgot one of the most important reasons to look at these thermostats - they use the regular 4 wire thermostat wire that you house probably already has. There is a brain that sits at the HVAC unit that you need to run a serial cable to, but the wire between the brain and the wall unit is simply a normal 4 wire. It makes remodeling to these units extremely easy.

Love the P.S.

Since I have 3 thermostats I assume that I would end up with three TR's and a ZCV4. Something along the lines of $75 * 3 for the 40's and $189 for the controller...which is about the price of two HAI's without a zone controller.

I assume that this will then work stand alone if CQC is off just like a normal system, but allow me access to change any programming. Is there anything that I lose by not connecting my thermostat's to my security panel? Sitting here thinking that generally they are stand alone, but CQC can make decisions I can't think of what, but considering I don't have a panel yet I wanted to ask.

 

[Deephaven]

Thank you Ace & Paul as well. I appreciate the feedback. Considering that I have CQC though I think Sic's recommendation of saving me some money here is a must do. If there is anything I'd be missing though I am not opposed to spending the money.

Any zone baffle recommendations? The contractor I spoke to here is a huge fan of the Arzel zoning baffles which are pneumatic instead of electric. He claims they seal better. I can't seem to find a whole lot of reference to what to use elsewhere.

*note my baffles are mostly square

 

[ewiz]

Sorry if I'm sidetracking the thread a bit.
It would seem to apply that thermostats are universal devices and can control any aircon/furnace on the market. Is that true?
I have a few General/Mitsubishi aircon units that blow heat as well and have horrible thermostats that are not interconnected and horrible to use. I'd love to use a HAI or Aprilaire or RCS and have them connected to Elk/CQC. But for some reason I always thought my aircon only works with its own thermostats. Please set em straight after 3 years of wondering.

 

[sic0048]

I'd recommend that you look at the RCS thermostats. The CQC driver is very full featured and allows control of pretty much any thermostat capability. I actually think the RCS driver is better and has more features exposed to the end user than the HAI or other thermostats. RCS makes the TR-16, TR-40 (this has been replaced now) and a newer TR-60 (replacing the TR-40). They also make zone systems that use the same thermostats, so you don't have to replace equipment if you want to add a zone controller in the future.

PS - I forgot one of the most important reasons to look at these thermostats - they use the regular 4 wire thermostat wire that you house probably already has. There is a brain that sits at the HVAC unit that you need to run a serial cable to, but the wire between the brain and the wall unit is simply a normal 4 wire. It makes remodeling to these units extremely easy.

Love the P.S.

Since I have 3 thermostats I assume that I would end up with three TR's and a ZCV4. Something along the lines of $75 * 3 for the 40's and $189 for the controller...which is about the price of two HAI's without a zone controller.

I assume that this will then work stand alone if CQC is off just like a normal system, but allow me access to change any programming. Is there anything that I lose by not connecting my thermostat's to my security panel? Sitting here thinking that generally they are stand alone, but CQC can make decisions I can't think of what, but considering I don't have a panel yet I wanted to ask.

Yes, the thermostats will work just fine with CQC off. I use CQC to lower the setpoints based on the armed status and times of day. But if the system was down, the thermostat would continue to operate that the current setpoints just fine. I could also program the thermostat itself with time of day setbacks, but I like the convienence of using CQC and the alarm status to do that.

For example, when the alarm is set to "Night Mode" the thermostat gets set back 2-3 degrees. At 6am (which is about 45 minutes before anyone gets up), a run a scheduled event with CQC that sets the thermostat back to "Regular". However, I have a screen on my CQC system where I can easily change all the setbacks. So if I want the "Regular" mode to be 70 degrees instead of 68 degrees, it is simple as pressing the up button twice. I also have the thermostat set the temps back 1 degree when it is armed "Away". I can also suspend these setbacks if needed (for example if you are just going to pick the kids up at school and will be back in 10 minutes, you probably don't want to set the thermostat back).

 

[sic0048]

Sorry if I'm sidetracking the thread a bit.
It would seem to apply that thermostats are universal devices and can control any aircon/furnace on the market. Is that true?
I have a few General/Mitsubishi aircon units that blow heat as well and have horrible thermostats that are not interconnected and horrible to use. I'd love to use a HAI or Aprilaire or RCS and have them connected to Elk/CQC. But for some reason I always thought my aircon only works with its own thermostats. Please set em straight after 3 years of wondering.

As a basic rule - yes. The thermostat really just closes a relay that energizes the system and turns it on. That is the basic operation of all thermostats. In the old days, it was done via a mercury switch. Now it is more complicated. But the end result is the same - the thermostat energizes the relay and turns the system on when called.

Now there are different types of HVAC systems - single stage, 2 and 3 stage systems, etc, etc, etc. So you need to make sure the thermostat matches the system. For example, the old mercury switches are a basic single stage thermostat. If you have a heat pump with a 2nd stage emergency heat option, hooking a single stage thermostat to it would not work properly because there would be no way for the thermostat to ever turn on the 2nd stage.

Of course if you have some weird proprietary HVAC system, it may be that it won't work with a different thermostat - but that is the exception to the rule.

 

[sic0048]

Since I have 3 thermostats I assume that I would end up with three TR's and a ZCV4. Something along the lines of $75 * 3 for the 40's and $189 for the controller...which is about the price of two HAI's without a zone controller.

That would work, but I also think you can use the ZC-4 zone control board as well if you bought the TR-40 thermostats. The main difference between the ZC-4 and the ZCV-4 is that the ZC-4 uses the control boards that come with the individual TR-40 thermostats. So the zone controller doesn't add the communication parts and is slightly cheaper. The ZCV-4 has the communication boards built into the zone controller. So you don't use the individual brains with each thermostat. They sell the wall display units (a TR-40 without the brain) to use with this zone control board.

Since you may get the EBay models, they come with the individual brains. If the ZC-4 zone controller is cheaper than the ZCV-4 board, then get it instead. Of course you can use the ZCV-4 just fine, you'll just not use the control boards that come with each thermostat. But you are getting the thermostats at such a good price, that really doesn't matter.

 

[sic0048]

Also, concerning the difference between using CQC vs the ELK to control the thermostats... I choose CQC simply because it was cheaper. I could use a cheap RS485 to RS282 converter that I bought on EBay for about $5 and hook it up using CQC. To use the thermostats with ELK, you must use one of the ELK-M1XSP serial expanders and they cost a lot more. Certainly the CQC driver is full feature. I assume the Elk probably is too. But there isn't really anything that I would gain by using the Elk except the hardware control/battery backup that the ELK offers. But as stated earlier, if my CQC system goes down (which is rare), the only thing I'll not get is the automatic setbacks. If I come home and the house is 2 degrees hotter or colder than I expected because the CQC machine went down, I can live with that. I can always change the temps using the thermostat itself (but that is so Old School ).

 

[Deephaven]

You've convinced me....and made it easy as the retrofit should be pretty simple in particular since my CQC computer is in the furnace room

 

[Deephaven]

Finally won three of the TR40's. $140. Thank you for the recommendation, I now have money to spend on other HA fun