ELK <> ALC Interface

[felixrosbergen]

And beelzeron, if i recall you confirmed that if you turn on multiple lights from CQC the commands are executed at a speed that approaches instantaneous to the human eye right? No 1 sec delays between commands like the darn ELK.

It woudl be nice if the CQC driver could 'trigger' the scene defined within the ALC controller like the scene switches do. This woudl save quite a lot of potential programming.

On the other hand the method in which you have to programm the scene switches is rather crazy in my opinion. If you had 12 scene switch on which you want button 4 to be 'All Off' for all of them and you have 49 dimmer and you just added dimmer #50 you woudl wan that dimmer to be part of the All Off. The way i understand you have to reprogram each button on each scene switch where you want this new dimmer to be included. Reprogramming a scene means redoing it from scatch (there is no 'adding' function)...so thats 12 laps through the whole freaking house pressing 50 dimmer buttons (600 presses in all).

I'm more tempted to use the scene switches as 'dumb' input buttons to CQC and programm the scene with CQC actions. There you can create each scene once and edit it where needed.

 

[beelzerob]

And beelzerob, if i recall you confirmed that if you turn on multiple lights from CQC the commands are executed at a speed that approaches instantaneous to the human eye right? No 1 sec delays between commands like the darn ELK.

Indeed. I don't have a lot of lights hooked up to test, but I would call it un-noticeable to the human eye. Nothing even anywhere close to 1 second between.

It woudl be nice if the CQC driver could 'trigger' the scene defined within the ALC controller like the scene switches do. This woudl save quite a lot of potential programming.

Hmmm...you know, there might be something in the protocol about scenes, other than just the button capture. There are global scenes in the driver already, where it memorizes every light switch placement. About all it's good for, in my opinion, is an All On for emergencies.

But I do seem to vaguely remember some commands for scenes, as in which loads make up a scene. I'll have to look into that. If I had to guess, I'd say probably the scenetech software you can buy from ALC allows for easier management of scenes.

I'm more tempted to use the scene switches as 'dumb' input buttons to CQC and programm the scene with CQC actions. There you can create each scene once and edit it where needed.

Actually, I've toyed with the idea also of allowing users to create "Scenes" in the switch naming file. Basically, after you've named your switches, you could create something like

Scene
Name=Cozy
MasterBedroom_Level=50
MasterBathroom_Level=0
LivingRoom_Level=40

and then you'd end up with a simple boolean field in the driver Cozy_Scene and if you write True to it, then the driver will command all of the listed lights to the specified level. It's been my idea for a ghetto scene switch within CQC. It's really no different functionally then just using a trigger to command the light levels in a CQC action...but it's perhaps a little cleaner.

*shrug* As Dean would say....it's on the list....

 

[rbroders]

Thanks to my large install, my current plan is to have 12 branch hubs randomly distributed throughout the house in an effort to keep the total wire length as short as possible (star-star configuration). The hubs are only a little more $ than the distro modules (40 vs 25 each), though lots more than a 66 block, of course.

Beez, I love the idea of defining scenes in the config file. If you haven't added it by the time I get settled in (Feb?), I'll add it for you. Theoretically, you could make the scenes outputs as well as inputs by comparing the current load status with the scene definition...

I wonder if the motion detector to light on response time is better with CQC driving the light than it is with the ELK doing it directly. Seems like adding a box would slow things down rather than speed them up, but who knows...

--Bob

 

[beelzerob]

Beez, I love the idea of defining scenes in the config file. If you haven't added it by the time I get settled in (Feb?), I'll add it for you. Theoretically, you could make the scenes outputs as well as inputs by comparing the current load status with the scene definition...

Heh...well, if you give me until Feb, then I've actually got a good chance of doing it. Winter is a GREAT time for working on drivers....

I'm not sure it'd be worth the effort to make it an output as well. You'd have to monitor every switch change to see if it was in the scene group, and if so, then compare its level to the preset one. I'd think most of the time, you're just wanting to invoke a scene, not know if it's currently enabled. But *shrug* maybe the winter will be especially severe and that'll appeal to do.

 

[felixrosbergen]

rbroders:

Just keep in mind that you don't need a port on a hub for each switch, only the ones where you want to crossconnect to aux switches. Each hub has multiple COMM only ports and you can easilly tie the COMM for a few switches in the same location together. This shouldnt hurt the troubleshooting process too much.

So you plan to put those hubs in 2 gang brackets on/in the wall somewhere?

 

[rbroders]

Yeah, I know. I suppose you could wire 20 switches to a hub if you wanted to instead of 9.

Frankly I'm still in the design phase on how I want to wire this house. The 500' length limitation per branch has me a little nervous. Whats the point of a hardwired lighting system if the thing is not 100% reliable!

Rereading the documentation for the branch hub, it states that the total wire from the hub to the switches should not exceed 500', so it seems that limit is reset for each hub. It also states that the hub can be placed up to 1000' from the branch (as long as you don't have any switches connected directly to the branch). Since you can have up to four hubs per branch this essentially increases the total wire length limit for each branch to 2000', and possibly to 2500' if you have your hubs near your branch and connect some loads directly to the branch. This would allow 100' per switch, and should be enough to support a homerun system in my house even with 100 loads.

What do you think? Should I go for a homerun system, or play it safe by distributing hubs throughout my house?

Hmmmm -- Bob

 

[felixrosbergen]

Here is my thoughts:
1 Don't homerun a cable for each switch. Do one per locations or more than one if needed due to multiple switches that will require aux (e.g. 3 switches all requiring aux would result in 2 cat5's since you need 2 conductors for the communicaitions and 3 * 3 for the aux LV. 8 conductors per cat5 so 2 needed).
2 You will end up with massive bundles if you homerun everythnig.


So if you add up the total length of all the cables connected to the ports on the hub should that not exceed 500' or that lenght attached to each port on the hub? That part is still unclear to me. I am not sure if it really matters since i don't think it's all that likely that with the number of ports on the hub you would exceed 500' unless each run from the hub to a switch is like 80' or so. I would suspect that the signal is aplified and then essentially put onto a common bus along all the ports...so the 500' would indeed be the total of all the run from that hub.

Where did the 20 come from? The limit per branch is 32 active devices (so Aux's don't count).

So distance between the controller (what i assume they refer to as the branch) and the hub can be 1000' ? Maybe the hub as a better 'receiver' or something..or like you said if there is no switches on the same line there are less losses.

As mentioned before...this system has been 100% reliable for me...the lights always come on when they are supposed to. I don;t regret ny choice for ALC at all.but i'll probably move control from ELK to ALC. It has been a bit of a learning curve with the wiring and such, but you get to take advantage of that now..

 

[rbroders]

My initial thought was one CAT5 per box, but I have two reasons for going one CAT5 per switch instead:

Electrician will be installing it, and I don't want to teach him which pair goes to which switch wire.

I have to make the LV connections in the box, and it isn't possible to properly insulate the polling loop connections to more than one switch from a single CAT5 input pair. I know AceCannon is doing it, but I'm sure his boxes wouldn't get by my inspector.

More futureproof to have more wires

Massive bundles of wires is a blessing and a curse, I guess. If the wires are all in one place, you can configure the three ways at will, and hopefully have a nice neat arrangement. But I suppose it could really get out of hand as well.

The total cumulative length of all cables connecting ALC Dimmers,
Relay Switches, Scene Switches, Program Switches and I/O
Modules to the ALC Branch Hub should not exceed 500 feet.
Connection Point 10 provides connections for a single category 3,
5 or 5E cable that is homerun directly to the lighting controller.
Connection Point 10 provides additional connections for cascading
additional Hubs. The maximum cable distance between the ALC
Branch Hub and the lighting controller should not exceed 1000 ft.
Up to four(4) Hubs may be connected to each controller ALC
branch. The wiring distance of each Hub from the controller should
not exceed 1000 ft. If ALC switches are connected directly in
parallel with the Hub to the controller, the total cumulative branch
wiring length should not exceed 500 ft. Refer to Figure 6

I found Figure6 (attached) confusing initially because the switch is drawn directly on top of the power connection from one hub to another. The switch of course does not need power and is not connected to the green and pink wires.

--Bob

P.S. The number 20 was just arbitrary. In fact, you could have a full 31 switches all wired to a single connection point on a hub.

 

[felixrosbergen]

So whats you plan then with the cat5 per switch and i assume per aux as well.

Do you cut the LV wires on the switch relatively short, then crimp on the 5 conductors and then heatshrink the whole thing...actually uncrimp because you forgot to put the heatshrink tube on and then do it again?

I suppose that could work..but i thought even with the heatshrink insulation tubing you still need the 1/2" or 3/4" or howover much it is separation.

I hope you plan to have your inspector come look at a small piece of sample installation.

You'll need to give your sparky a convention for matching the switch LV wires to the cat5 conductors.

The method below is what beelzerob and i have used, maybe AceCannon can chime in as well...

TX- = White on ALC Swtich = Blue in Cat5 (Clear from ALC documentation)
TX+ = Yellow on ALC Switch = Blue/White in Cat5 (Clear from ALC documentation)
12VDC = None (Hub Power) = White Brown
Ground = None (Hub Ground) = White Green
AUX ON = Green on ALC Switch = Orange in Cat5e and on Hub
AUX OFF = Red on ALC Switch = Green in Cat5e and on Hub
AUX COMM = Black on ALC Switch = Brown in Cat5e and on Hub

If you need a 2nd set of aux wiring through the same cat5 (shouldnt happen with your method, but just in case) then:
AUX ON = Green on ALC Switch = White/Orange in Cat5e and Green on Hub
AUX OFF = Red on ALC Switch = White/Green in Cat5e and Green on Hub
AUX COMM = Black on ALC Switch = White/Brown in Cat5e and Brown on Hub

Got to be a bit carefull with not mixed the 12VDC and the Aux lines although I am not sure if you woudl actuall fry anything since the aux switches are just momentary rocker switches as far as i know without any brains in them.

 

[rbroders]

TX- = White on ALC Swtich = Blue in Cat5 (Clear from ALC documentation)
TX+ = Yellow on ALC Switch = Blue/White in Cat5 (Clear from ALC documentation)
12VDC = None (Hub Power) = White Brown
Ground = None (Hub Ground) = White Green
AUX ON = Green on ALC Switch = Orange in Cat5e and on Hub
AUX OFF = Red on ALC Switch = Green in Cat5e and on Hub
AUX COMM = Black on ALC Switch = Brown in Cat5e and on Hub

I like your wiring standard - it exactly matches the ALC branch hub installation doc I got from setnet. BTW, the docs also include this picture which implies you can remove the terminal cap and connect the CAT5 directly to terminals on the switch. True? Perhaps only for really old switches? I don't have my samples anymore so I can't check this out myself easily.

The 1/4" separation requirement cracks me up. How can you tell where the wires end up when you stuff the switches into the boxes! Maybe the inspector will x-ray the boxes and measure the results! I figure the LV comes in and the top, and hopefully stays there and the HV comes in at the bottom and hopefully stays there. I think connecting on top of the box is a much better plan. Arghh.

My inspector has already approved a sample board we made up, so hopefully we're good to go. I just have to figure out where I'm going to put the hubs...

--Bob

 

[sbwright]

Here is a pic of a switch I had recently ordered to identify whether or not it been approved for use in Canada. With this swith there are no terminals under the cover plate.

 

[AceCannon]

Wiring scheme: I ended up making up my own scheme, which works fine. My thought is that as long as it is consistent and makes sense - copper is copper.

Inspectors: My inspectors came out before the switches were in the wall. The LV wires were there for "future use". My contractor had shown the inspector one of the installation sheets for an ALC dimmer and he said "yeah I know about those. That is fine." I was not present for any of the inspections, but when the switches were all in the wall, the LV wires were not visible at all. Never had an issue. YMMV, of course. It seems to me speaking with the inspector beforehand is the thing to do. At least you will know what he will allow.

In retrospect, I think doing the connections above the box would have been a PITA since I would have had a drywall saw in use a lot. My feeling is that connections inside the box are safe if done optimally. If they are going to be above the box, I would suggest making sure the cat5e is very easily retrievable.

 

[felixrosbergen]

Here is a pic of a switch I had recently ordered to identify whether or not it been approved for use in Canada. With this swith there are no terminals under the cover plate.

Ah...but you can see the screw holes are still there...

I wonder if you could crimp terminals onto the switch LV wiring and then get some screws that tie them down on the chassis..then coming in with your properly insulated LV field wiring and terminate on the same screw... no idea how practical this is...

I'd love for the ALC switch o come without any wires attached and just a bunch of push-in connectors...would certainly clean up the mess in the boxes quite box..

 

[felixrosbergen]

Wiring scheme: I ended up making up my own scheme, which works fine. My thought is that as long as it is consistent and makes sense - copper is copper.

Inspectors: My inspectors came out before the switches were in the wall. The LV wires were there for "future use". My contractor had shown the inspector one of the installation sheets for an ALC dimmer and he said "yeah I know about those. That is fine."

So during the rough-in inspection (when the frame is up and the wiring and boxes are installed, but not the switches), did you have the cat5e coiled up inside the box or something? I am really curious how you got this past inspection. If the inspectors (i know they all varry) accept a coiled up cat5e with electrical tape on the ends then this is great. When you moved into the house were your ALC switches in or are you replacing the standard switches as you go?

Is cat5e by itself properly insulated to be next to HV? Or have you been adding the heat shrink tubing?

I didnt have any issues with inspection either, in my case I had the condiot coming into the boxes for 'future' use and that was apparently ok. They had to cap the conduit on the non-box side to pass inspection (for fire rating or something like that) and they told me that if the expector asked about this future use i shoudl telll him that whatever plans i had woudl involve removing the cap, running a cable and then putting fire cauking or rockwool or something in the end where the cap was. That would make him happy and that was that. I was never asked.

I only did the conduit thing for the ground floor. For the 2nd floor I had nothing installed since it's all easilly accesible from the attic, so i'll just drop a cat5e into the wall (all switches are on interior walls so insulation wont be in the way). I will have to cut above the box in the drywall and fish out the cat5 but i've done a few and it's quite easy. The LV conenction is made and all the LV and connections is stuffed into the wall.

I didn't get conduit or cat5e pre-wired on 2nd floor because I had to get it done by a Contractor and i had to pay for every run..... If i had been able to do it myself i certainly woudl have pre-wired a cat5e to each switch location from the start sincce the cabel is cheap.

In retrospect, I think doing the connections above the box would have been a PITA since I would have had a drywall saw in use a lot. My feeling is that connections inside the box are safe if done optimally. If they are going to be above the box, I would suggest making sure the cat5e is very easily retrievable.

It's not bad, you get a large faceplate (Leviton MIDI size) and with a pencil mark the edge on the wall...then get your dremel and cut a slot and fish out the cat5. The only problem i ran into was that the dimmers expect the drywall to be there to get them properly spaced from the box. I.e. the 'wings' of the dimmer are intended to sit against the drywall. If you remove a good chunk of said drywall it's hard to get the dimmer fixed properly.

In the end if you can get away with the 'in box' connections that is far superior.

 

[AceCannon]

So during the rough-in inspection (when the frame is up and the wiring and boxes are installed, but not the switches), did you have the cat5e coiled up inside the box or something? I am really curious how you got this past inspection. If the inspectors (i know they all varry) accept a coiled up cat5e with electrical tape on the ends then this is great. When you moved into the house were your ALC switches in or are you replacing the standard switches as you go?

For inspection prior to drywall, I had the cat5e outside the box just slipped between the piece of plastic that holds the nail for the box. After inspection we went around and pulled the cat5e through the top of each box and our through the bottoms. So it didn't have to get coiled inside the box, but was easily accessible.