Elk+CentraLite and Zigbee?

dutchyn

Active Member
I looked at CentraLite's JetStream lighting, and noticed that it's Zigbee based, and works with CentraLite's JetPak security/monitoring. In examining JetPak, I noticed that it uses an Elk-M1 controller. Does this mean that I can actually get my utopia for our new house (in the design stage): zigbee-based lighting, media, and HVAC with an affordable and programmable panel?

Has anyone tried this? Also, what is the premium for a JetPak system versus DIY?

Chris D.
 
I looked at CentraLite's JetStream lighting, and noticed that it's Zigbee based, and works with CentraLite's JetPak security/monitoring. In examining JetPak, I noticed that it uses an Elk-M1 controller. Does this mean that I can actually get my utopia for our new house (in the design stage): zigbee-based lighting, media, and HVAC with an affordable and programmable panel?

Has anyone tried this? Also, what is the premium for a JetPak system versus DIY?

Chris D.

Chris--just a quick note: you'll want to note that this is a "JetPak ZigBee + ELK" system and not a "ZigBee Certified + ELK" system. Or in other words, you'll have a JetPak and Elk system using a ZigBee-style radio--but you probably won't be able to integrate with any other ZigBee-based devices (based on either the "new ZigBee" or the "old ZigBee" standard).

Confusing, I know. I really wish they'd either make the products work together or just use "802.15.4" in their marketing instead so that people don't get confused.

If you're going for a JetPak + ELK system, and don't care about interoperability on the mesh network, it could very well be a good choice. I look forward to hearing your results if you pick the systems up. New products are fun.

Chris
 
Chris--just a quick note: you'll want to note that this is a "JetPak ZigBee + ELK" system and not a "ZigBee Certified + ELK" system. Or in other words, you'll have a JetPak and Elk system using a ZigBee-style radio--but you probably won't be able to integrate with any other ZigBee-based devices (based on either the "new ZigBee" or the "old ZigBee" standard).
Hi Chris,

I'm not sure this is true. My understanding is that the JetStream WILL inter-operate with other certified Zigbee devices. The "old Zigbee" is just that, old. If you do not conform to the latest specification, you can't call it Zigbee. No devices were ever certified to the original 'old' specification. There is only 'new' Zigbee.
 
Chris--just a quick note: you'll want to note that this is a "JetPak ZigBee + ELK" system and not a "ZigBee Certified + ELK" system. Or in other words, you'll have a JetPak and Elk system using a ZigBee-style radio--but you probably won't be able to integrate with any other ZigBee-based devices (based on either the "new ZigBee" or the "old ZigBee" standard).
Hi Chris,

I'm not sure this is true. My understanding is that the JetStream WILL inter-operate with other certified Zigbee devices. The "old Zigbee" is just that, old. If you do not conform to the latest specification, you can't call it Zigbee. No devices were ever certified to the original 'old' specification. There is only 'new' Zigbee.

I didn't realize there was an "old zigbee", that is useful information. My question was whether the ELK M1 would see the Zigbee-attached devices (like HVAC, lighting, media) so that as we drive up the heat turns up, "dinner-time" lighting scene starts, and start CNN playing (until the phone rings - whereupon the TV is muted). One option is Control4 for the geothermal thermostats and media control, CentraLite JetStream for lighting, and the ELF for some remote blinds, security--smoke detectors && glass-break--, water valves, and (maybe) some video. I don't know what to use for audio yet. Control4 could do the security, but I have concerns with remote access limited to a US-based subscription service.

Chris D.
 
Chris--just a quick note: you'll want to note that this is a "JetPak ZigBee + ELK" system and not a "ZigBee Certified + ELK" system. Or in other words, you'll have a JetPak and Elk system using a ZigBee-style radio--but you probably won't be able to integrate with any other ZigBee-based devices (based on either the "new ZigBee" or the "old ZigBee" standard).
Hi Chris,

I'm not sure this is true. My understanding is that the JetStream WILL inter-operate with other certified Zigbee devices. The "old Zigbee" is just that, old. If you do not conform to the latest specification, you can't call it Zigbee. No devices were ever certified to the original 'old' specification. There is only 'new' Zigbee.

I stopped at the Centralite booth and spoke with one of their engineers. He said that Centralite is not a member of the Zigbee alliance, but that JetStream is based on the "new" Zigbee Plus standard. I asked about inter-operation and he said that communication with JetStream required their wireless access point. Since they are not certified, he would not guarantee inter-operability with other Zigbee devices. I hope they will work together.

While I was in the Centralite booth, Chris from Elk joined us and was pretty sure that Elk could and would support JetStream with an RS-232 interface. Good news.

As I stated in another thread, I really liked the JetStream system and plan to get the starter pack to try.
 
The Centralite JetStream lighting system is based on the 2007, version 3, Zigbee protocol which is scheduled to be ratified by the Zigbee Alliance in the next few months. ELK M1 will support the JetStream after we get our system to develop with! Hint, hint!!
 
Spanky, thanks for the good info.

Regarding the "old ZigBee" and the "new ZigBee", the story gets pretty confusing.

Originally, I think the idea was for "ZigBee" products to be interoperable--that is, work together. Much like Bluetooth, where any Bluetooth Headset Profile device can work with any cellphone which supports the profile.

But then what happened was that the manufacturers all created products with "tweaks" to the protocol and their own profiles. Control4, Crestron, and others all created products based on their own iteration--all based on 802.15.4 (the standard that ZigBee is based on), but none of which would work together.

Then, the core protocol changes dramatically into the new 2006/2007 standard, which isn't compatible with the old standard unless you use some sort of bridging mechanism or more expensive chips.

Today, here's the official list of ZigBee "Certified" devices. These are ones that should work together, much like Bluetooth devices can work together. There are basically zero end-user interoperable products on the official list:
http://www.zigbee.org/en/certification/cer...ed_products.asp

For some reason, the ZigBee Alliance has encouraged or permitted their members to use the term "ZigBee" on products that don't work together--which creates lots of industry buzz but absolutely horrible confusion for end consumers.

So here's what we have:

ZigBee Network Capable (i.e. non-interoperable but based on a technology based on ZigBee):
Pretty much all "ZigBee" devices on the market, including Control4, Crestron, probably JetPak, etc.

ZigBee Certified (i.e. interoperable with ZigBee devices on same frequency, using same version of stack, etc.):
Surprisingly, zero to few end-user devices.

It's a bit of a mess from a marketing standpoint--but in the end the simple way to understand ZigBee is "non-interoperable products based on a wireless mesh network technology." Someday that may change, but they may have to change the name of the group supporting the protocol to make the message clear or something.

Chris
 
Chris gives a pretty complete history of the Zigbee saga. I hope to fill in some gaps.

Control4, Crestron, and others created their own "tweaks" to the original Zigbee specification for a good reason: the original specs was incomplete and unworkable for home automation, and they needed to get products out. They only needed compatibility with themselves. Note that they do not publicly refer to their products as Zigbee.

As Chris pointed out, no products are yet certified under the home-automation profile, and I hear that is because the certification test procedures are not complete. Zigbee certification is done by third-party testing centers, from tests designed by the alliance. The sole purpose of certification testing is to insure that Zigbee devices interoperate.

For some reason, the ZigBee Alliance has encouraged or permitted their members to use the term "ZigBee" on products that don't work together--which creates lots of industry buzz but absolutely horrible confusion for end consumers.
Well, "permitted" maybe, "encouraged" certainly not. They do try to enforce the trademark, but many companies are not aware of the trademark restrictions on the word "Zigbee". I suspect you will see it disappear from the CentraLite website eventually.

So here's what we have:

ZigBee Network Capable (i.e. non-interoperable but based on a technology based on ZigBee):
Pretty much all "ZigBee" devices on the market, including Control4, Crestron, probably JetPak, etc.

ZigBee Certified (i.e. interoperable with ZigBee devices on same frequency, using same version of stack, etc.):
Surprisingly, zero to few end-user devices.
The "Zigbee network Capable" designation has been withdrawn, and replaced by "Zigbee Certified" for a private profile. NO products have ever been granted this designation and you will not find it used for any of the afore-mentioned products. Control4, Crestron and CentraLite cannot use the Zigbee name at all, yet. CentraLite's use of Zigbee on their website is premature, and a violation of the trademark.

. . . in the end the simple way to understand ZigBee is "non-interoperable products based on a wireless mesh network technology."
Pure, unadulterated FUD, from someone who has bet his farm on ZWave.
 
Rocco,

Sorry, wasn't trying to throw any stones there. Maybe I'm seeing things wrong, so let me illustrate my point. If I'm wrong, please let me know--I'm only trying to clarify things here--not muddy the waters...

Control4, Crestron, and others created their own "tweaks" to the original Zigbee specification for a good reason: the original specs was incomplete and unworkable for home automation, and they needed to get products out. They only needed compatibility with themselves. Note that they do not publicly refer to their products as Zigbee.

Very true. I think they did it for two reasons, though. To ship products, yes, but a lot of the companies make a living off of selling their own products--and don't want competing products to easily replace (or work with) theirs.

As far as marketing, Control4 certainly does market their products as Zigbee. They use 802.15.4 and ZigBee interchangably. They have done so from the beginning, and it's everywhere--all the way down to their product literature:

"For new or retrofit home automation solutions using ZigBee wireless connectivity."
"Communications * Wireless ZigBee (802.15.4) mesh networking"
http://www.control4.com/documents/briefs/C...elessDimmer.pdf

"Standards-based control — Devices throughout the home are controlled via communication over wireless ZigBee™ (802.15.4) mesh networking or Ethernet (802.3)."
http://www.control4.com/documents/briefs/C...rController.pdf

"The company is the first to deliver next-generation wireless products based on the 802.15.4 standard (also known as ZigBee). ZigBee is the new industry standard for cost-effective mesh networking and is supported by a broad consortium of companies. Integrated with Control4 products, it enables reliable, cost-effective monitoring and control of devices throughout the home."
http://www.control4.com/company/press/2005-8-15-emhe.htm

For some reason, the ZigBee Alliance has encouraged or permitted their members to use the term "ZigBee" on products that don't work together--which creates lots of industry buzz but absolutely horrible confusion for end consumers.
Well, "permitted" maybe, "encouraged" certainly not. They do try to enforce the trademark, but many companies are not aware of the trademark restrictions on the word "Zigbee". I suspect you will see it disappear from the CentraLite website eventually.

I know that executives at a number of ZigBee-supporting companies have been extremely frustrated about the issue, so it would be really great for the brand if that did happen. It's been extremely confusing for the media, consumers, etc. The term "ZigBee" has come to mean something very different than what "Bluetooth" or "WiFi" mean to their respective 802.x protocols.

The "Zigbee network Capable" designation has been withdrawn, and replaced by "Zigbee Certified" for a private profile. NO products have ever been granted this designation and you will not find it used for any of the afore-mentioned products. Control4, Crestron and CentraLite cannot use the Zigbee name at all, yet. CentraLite's use of Zigbee on their website is premature, and a violation of the trademark.

So Control4 can't be using the term on their website, press releases, and product sheets either? And a device can be "ZigBee Certified" when it doesn't work with anything else? Isn't that worse from a marketing/interoperability standpoint? How does someone know that a ZigBee device works with their other devices? Do they have to look beyond the logo and drill down into the profiles?

. . . in the end the simple way to understand ZigBee is "non-interoperable products based on a wireless mesh network technology."

Pure, unadulterated FUD, from someone who has bet his farm on ZWave.

:huh: Today, all "ZigBee" products are non-interoperable products, at least outside of their own brands--or if they are interoperable they haven't been certified as such. I wasn't trying to spread any FUD there--but I really don't know how else to explain the ZigBee world. Some people are buying "ZigBee" products and then getting really frustrated when they won't work with anything else natively... They may get the benefit of the devices working as a mesh--which is nice--as long as they're based on the same version, frequency, etc. as well.

As far as betting the farm, we've actually built a number of protocol stacks--for UPB, Z-Wave, LonWorks, and other protocols. The only wireless protocol that has been picked up by the market, can be made reliable, and is interoperable today is Z-Wave, which is why we're shipping products based off of it. We'll of course serve the market's needs--but today we simply can't create a product which works with "ZigBee" devices so it's not even an option.

Chris
 
Interesting... It looks like Crestron calls their products "ZigBee" too--which is interesting because they talk about their InfiNet technology as an "enhanced" version of ZigBee.

"The MLX-2 MiniLCD is a handheld remote featuring ZigBee® 2-way RF wireless communications."
http://www.crestron.com/products/show_prod...amp;model=MLX-2

Also, Colorado vNet is using the term ZigBee in their marketing materials:
"The MultiLink Module provides the gateway between the wired and wireless worlds. This versatile device speaks three languages – ZigBee® for wireless lighting, CAN for wired lighting and Ethernet for audio, climate and security."
http://www.coloradovnet.com/wireless/wireless_multilink.aspx

Here's an article which says that their products are ZigBee compliant, but that it won't work with some Zigbee-compatible products:
"...The manufacturer also says that that, since the TD1 is ZigBee compliant, it allows for integration to other third-party ZigBee-compliant devices into your home automation system.
In fact, many ZigBee products incorporate different protocols, so not all ZigBee-compatible products will work with the TD1."
http://www.cepro.com/article/colorado_vnet...hting_controls/

I can't imagine how any normal consumer would make sense of all of this... It's bad enough over in the Bluetooth world having Headset and Handsfree profiles (although that has largely cleared itself up by now)...

Chris
 
P.P.S. Rocco--thank you very much for your insights here. I try to follow all protocol-level news in the industry very closely, but I end up learning a lot from you and others here as well.
 
P.P.S. Rocco--thank you very much for your insights here. I try to follow all protocol-level news in the industry very closely, but I end up learning a lot from you and others here as well.

At the risk of revaeling my total ignorance here, I'll pose the following questions:
1) Can I make my Elk M1 recognize my ZigBee devices (is there a reasonable module now available or planned)?
2) Will I be able to "share" them with My Control4 (e.g. use a motion sensor for event triggering in Control4, and for security with the M1)?
3) If I can do either of the above, what do I need to buy?
 
I stopped at the Centralite booth and spoke with one of their engineers. He said that Centralite is not a member of the Zigbee alliance, but that JetStream is based on the "new" Zigbee Plus standard. I asked about inter-operation and he said that communication with JetStream required their wireless access point. Since they are not certified, he would not guarantee inter-operability with other Zigbee devices. I hope they will work together.

Good news, Centralite is now part of the alliance.
 
I stopped at the Centralite booth and spoke with one of their engineers. He said that Centralite is not a member of the Zigbee alliance, but that JetStream is based on the "new" Zigbee Plus standard. I asked about inter-operation and he said that communication with JetStream required their wireless access point. Since they are not certified, he would not guarantee inter-operability with other Zigbee devices. I hope they will work together.

Good news, Centralite is now part of the alliance.
That is good news. I hope this means that interoperability will be possible. I will definitely stop by their booth at EHX and ask. I also want to know when the starter kit will be available.
 
I stopped at the Centralite booth and spoke with one of their engineers. He said that Centralite is not a member of the Zigbee alliance, but that JetStream is based on the "new" Zigbee Plus standard. I asked about inter-operation and he said that communication with JetStream required their wireless access point. Since they are not certified, he would not guarantee inter-operability with other Zigbee devices. I hope they will work together.

Good news, Centralite is now part of the alliance.
That is good news. I hope this means that interoperability will be possible. I will definitely stop by their booth at EHX and ask. I also want to know when the starter kit will be available.

I don't know if this means anything but I was told they use chips supplied by Ember, who are also part of the alliance. As of now both of these companies have the "Designed for ZigBee" status, which means they are waiting for the "ZigBee Certified" status.
 
Back
Top