Elk M1 vs Bosch G-series?

[jeditekunum]

I highly doubt they are loosing too much business. Bosch, DSC and the like generally cater to dealers, businesses, etc. not really people interested in API's and the like. As far as the Bosch panels...they do have the typical programming software as well as remote connection apps for the end-user...which is all most people (and myself) really need.
As fa as Elk, the only thing I'm hesitant about is the 'outdated' feeling...like they don't seem to be releasing a ton of new products or revisions and their whole website alone feels outdated.
 
I already used the Envisalink with my current Honeywell panel...I mean it's fine for basic arming/disarming and whatever, but regardless it only works with Honeywell and DSC panels...I'm definitely looking for something more capable...I'm just trying to decide between the Elk and Bosch. But I think Elk is kind of winning out for me.

 
Probably not a lot of business at this point but one has to question the logic of giving up business for no real reason. I've read in numerous places that the residential alarm business is shifting - massively  - to DIY. Of course there are still plenty of multimillionaires and people who just don't want to bother with DIY. They are the same market as there has always been for professional installation and monitoring. The rise of more affordable DIY solutions are expanding the market for security. At the moment most of those customers are buying wireless systems from non-traditional alarm manufacturers. Some, myself included, still prefer wired. Those people will also expect APIs for home automation as that is also expanding quickly. So for a traditional alarm manufacturer to ignore that emerging market is nothing but lost business for no good reason. They wouldn't be taking business away from their dealers.
 
At any rate, I'm interested in understanding what you feel is necessary to be the "more capable" that you are looking for. What do you mean by "control by phone"? I assume you are talking about control by smartphone app which usually means some kind of cloud service and that is probably where you are concerned about recurring costs.
 
I agree with your concern about M1ToGo. I would bet any Windows-specific software will die soon. I would only recommend browser-accessible or iOS (Andriod for others). For Elk that would be eKeypad/M1TouchPro or the recurring fee cloud option ConnectONE. I assume the smartphone apps will work outside the home with appropriate opening of firewall ports and dynamic DNS (from what I've read that is true of eKeypad).
 
Why is your EnvisaLink any different? From what I can see it offers the same kind of options.
 
These cloud solutions are usually just vendor methods to extract $ from customers for making it easier to configure and operate. The cloud is just a rendezvous point for the device being controlled and the applications that want to talk to it. I have a Carrier HVAC that does that although their cloud is free. If you buy a product that happens to also work on the "local network" (without cloud) then it is possible you can configure it to work outside your home as well (open firewall port and use some kind of free dynamic DNS mapping service). Choose knowledge/time or money. Although it wouldn't surprise me if they handicapped their app to not be configurable enough to do this.
 
It looks to me like Bosch remote access can only be setup by a dealer with a correct license. Some way or another thats going to mean money to you I suspect and very likely recurring. They "don't market to DIYers" which is most likely code for you must buy from a dealer/installer and pay monthly fees to make it usable.

 

[Experienced]

Probably not a lot of business at this point but one has to question the logic of giving up business for no real reason. I've read in numerous places that the residential alarm business is shifting - massively  - to DIY. Of course there are still plenty of multimillionaires and people who just don't want to bother with DIY. They are the same market as there has always been for professional installation and monitoring. The rise of more affordable DIY solutions are expanding the market for security. At the moment most of those customers are buying wireless systems from non-traditional alarm manufacturers. Some, myself included, still prefer wired. Those people will also expect APIs for home automation as that is also expanding quickly. So for a traditional alarm manufacturer to ignore that emerging market is nothing but lost business for no good reason. They wouldn't be taking business away from their dealers.
 
At any rate, I'm interested in understanding what you feel is necessary to be the "more capable" that you are looking for. What do you mean by "control by phone"? I assume you are talking about control by smartphone app which usually means some kind of cloud service and that is probably where you are concerned about recurring costs.
 
I agree with your concern about M1ToGo. I would bet any Windows-specific software will die soon. I would only recommend browser-accessible or iOS (Andriod for others). For Elk that would be eKeypad/M1TouchPro or the recurring fee cloud option ConnectONE. I assume the smartphone apps will work outside the home with appropriate opening of firewall ports and dynamic DNS (from what I've read that is true of eKeypad).
 
Why is your EnvisaLink any different? From what I can see it offers the same kind of options.
 
These cloud solutions are usually just vendor methods to extract $ from customers for making it easier to configure and operate. The cloud is just a rendezvous point for the device being controlled and the applications that want to talk to it. I have a Carrier HVAC that does that although their cloud is free. If you buy a product that happens to also work on the "local network" (without cloud) then it is possible you can configure it to work outside your home as well (open firewall port and use some kind of free dynamic DNS mapping service). Choose knowledge/time or money. Although it wouldn't surprise me if they handicapped their app to not be configurable enough to do this.
 
It looks to me like Bosch remote access can only be setup by a dealer with a correct license. Some way or another thats going to mean money to you I suspect and very likely recurring. They "don't market to DIYers" which is most likely code for you must buy from a dealer/installer and pay monthly fees to make it usable.

 
Of course there is a reason, they would probably lose money doing that. Very very few DIYers are really going to be interested in purchasing a Bosch or DSC system...they prefer cheap, easy solutions like Simplisafe or whatever. If they did have API and whatever else, they would be getting tons of support calls from people who can't figure it out, which would increase their costs. Bosch, DSC and most of the 'traditional' manufactures are not looking to target the DIY market, they are looking to target professional dealers/businesses.
 
Yes, I want to control it on my phone with an app for free. My concern with Envisalink, for example, is that the Envisalink module connects to their servers and I need to access their site in order to utilize it. Which means if their servers go down or are hacked or they just plain feel like charging money for it...there's nothing I can do. With the Elk module however, it uses dynamic DNS to push IP address updates...meaning I can directly access it from my phone by simply going to my own site/ip address...it doesn't connect to their servers or anything like that, so I don't have to worry about their servers being hacked or down or whatever.
 
But it's also more then that...Elk has very powerful 'rules' software...I can setup rules to occur based on keypad temperature sensors, based on when the sun sets, based on what state a key is in, etc. It also easily supports proxy cards which I would like to use. I can program it to turn on a light at sunset, to turn on the heat if a room gets too cold, I can program it to turn on the coffee pot at a certain time, but only if a button was pressed the night before to activate it, etc. Pretty much anything you can think of can be done through the rules on the Elk...that's basically what I mean by 'more capable'. I can get the Elk to do whatever I want...which would be difficult or impossible to do with a DSC or Honeywell system.
 
And Bosch remote connect costs the dealers money...so there's no way around paying for it...which is why I was looking to see if there was any alternatives...but since I'm leaning towards the Elk anyway, I guess it doesn't really matter.

 

[jeditekunum]

Of course there is a reason, they would probably lose money doing that. Very very few DIYers are really going to be interested in purchasing a Bosch or DSC system...they prefer cheap, easy solutions like Simplisafe or whatever. If they did have API and whatever else, they would be getting tons of support calls from people who can't figure it out, which would increase their costs. Bosch, DSC and most of the 'traditional' manufactures are not looking to target the DIY market, they are looking to target professional dealers/businesses.

 

I agree most DIYers will go for the cheapo wireless. However, for those of us that won't, I'd wager that we are generally just as capable as their engineering people and, given a decent protocol manual, would never need support. In short its money they could make for zero cost. So ignoring it is just dumb business.
 
On top of that, the more open their integration capabilities are the more other vendors will integrate with them. Again, expanding their market.
 
What you're describing is old school - dying - business practices. They said the exact same thing about "open source" operating systems. Care to guess how many BILLIONS/yr of revenue (and the companies that earned it) just plain VANISHED?
 

`Yes, I want to control it on my phone with an app for free. My concern with Envisalink, for example, is that the Envisalink module connects to their servers and I need to access their site in order to utilize it. Which means if their servers go down or are hacked or they just plain feel like charging money for it...there's nothing I can do. With the Elk module however, it uses dynamic DNS to push IP address updates...meaning I can directly access it from my phone by simply going to my own site/ip address...it doesn't connect to their servers or anything like that, so I don't have to worry about their servers being hacked or down or whatever.
 
But it's also more then that...Elk has very powerful 'rules' software...I can setup rules to occur based on keypad temperature sensors, based on when the sun sets, based on what state a key is in, etc. It also easily supports proxy cards which I would like to use. I can program it to turn on a light at sunset, to turn on the heat if a room gets too cold, I can program it to turn on the coffee pot at a certain time, but only if a button was pressed the night before to activate it, etc. Pretty much anything you can think of can be done through the rules on the Elk...that's basically what I mean by 'more capable'. I can get the Elk to do whatever I want...which would be difficult or impossible to do with a DSC or Honeywell system.
 
And Bosch remote connect costs the dealers money...so there's no way around paying for it...which is why I was looking to see if there was any alternatives...but since I'm leaning towards the Elk anyway, I guess it doesn't really matter.

 

If you're happy with Elk then by all means go that way.
 
I don't have an EnvisaLink but on their web page it says "built-in web server and html user-interface". Setup your firewall and dynamic DNS and remote access is done; no cloud needed. The device itself doesn't need to push the dynamic DNS - anything on your network can do it, usually even the gateway router.
 
Yes, the Elk will give you some basic automation. Take a look at Loxone for something more capable and modern. You'll find that Loxone does security too - its security is just as primitive as Elk's automation. If you want best-of-breed you're not going to find it in a single system without spending 10's of thousands of dollars.

 

[Dean Roddey]

"What you're describing is old school - dying - business practices. They said the exact same thing about "open source" operating systems. Care to guess how many BILLIONS/yr of revenue (and the companies that earned it) just plain VANISHED?"
 
Not many billions that I can see. The vast majority of end users on the planet have and will continue to use a commercially provided operating system. Open source doesn't do end users at all really. Those places where open source operating systems are applicable already sort of were that way to begin with (big back end servers and small embedded systems) so I don't see where that would have moved many billions/year this way or that.
 
The thing is, the people who always complain that these are out of date business practices seldom seem to go into business with their new school business practices and kill of the dinosaurs. There's probably a good reason for that.

 

[jeditekunum]

"What you're describing is old school - dying - business practices. They said the exact same thing about "open source" operating systems. Care to guess how many BILLIONS/yr of revenue (and the companies that earned it) just plain VANISHED?"
 
Not many billions that I can see. The vast majority of end users on the planet have and will continue to use a commercially provided operating system. Open source doesn't do end users at all really. Those places where open source operating systems are applicable already sort of were that way to begin with (big back end servers and small embedded systems) so I don't see where that would have moved many billions/year this way or that.
 
The thing is, the people who always complain that these are out of date business practices seldom seem to go into business with their new school business practices and kill of the dinosaurs. There's probably a good reason for that.

 
As someone who worked his entire career in enterprise computing (Fortune 500 computer manufacturers and ISVs) I can tell you that your view is very limited. Its not enough to look purely at the revenue of the operating system itself, you have to consider the entire ecosystem. Proprietary operating systems were once a key stickiness for proprietary hardware. First proprietary operating systems and their hardware were destroyed by less-proprietary Unix-based platforms. Then free operating systems destroyed those partially-proprietary ones. There isn't enough space on this page to list all the operating systems, processor types, computing ecosystems, and entire corporations that are GONE. So yes, many billions/yr in revenue vanished.
 
A side-effect of all that is that hardware and software, and the people who make them, have, for the most part, been severely devalued to commodity status. The majority of "end users" on the planet you refer to are obviously Windows and that is an ecosystem that is slowly eroding. A growing ecosystem, smartphones and pads and Apple computers, don't generate much software revenue - generally free or the applications are relatively inexpensive. Mostly supporting the sale of the hardware.
 
As a retired software engineer I don't consider this revolution to necessarily be all good. Most of my prior industry has been offshoring for decades. Lack of profit potential has essentially killed innovation. So I'm not promoting the new world, merely stating the realities.
 
In this climate companies have to aim for value. A fair price for a fair product in light of the entire competitive landscape which includes free. I wouldn't depend on a free home-brew security system. But I'm not going to pay ransom level large enterprise rates for a residential installation either. Nor will I accept that simple functionality is held hostage to unreasonable costs.

 

[Experienced]

I agree most DIYers will go for the cheapo wireless. However, for those of us that won't, I'd wager that we are generally just as capable as their engineering people and, given a decent protocol manual, would never need support. In short its money they could make for zero cost. So ignoring it is just dumb business.
 
On top of that, the more open their integration capabilities are the more other vendors will integrate with them. Again, expanding their market.
 
What you're describing is old school - dying - business practices. They said the exact same thing about "open source" operating systems. Care to guess how many BILLIONS/yr of revenue (and the companies that earned it) just plain VANISHED?
 
 

If you're happy with Elk then by all means go that way.
 
I don't have an EnvisaLink but on their web page it says "built-in web server and html user-interface". Setup your firewall and dynamic DNS and remote access is done; no cloud needed. The device itself doesn't need to push the dynamic DNS - anything on your network can do it, usually even the gateway router.
 
Yes, the Elk will give you some basic automation. Take a look at Loxone for something more capable and modern. You'll find that Loxone does security too - its security is just as primitive as Elk's automation. If you want best-of-breed you're not going to find it in a single system without spending 10's of thousands of dollars.

 
You're very wrong there. The percent of DIYers that are as capable as professional installers and their own engineers is probably less then .0001%...Bosch, for example, caters mostly to commercial businesses...I don't know too many Walmarts or McDonald's managers who are going to install the alarm in their own store. And I have no clue in what world you live in...like the other poster beat me to saying...The overwhelming majoring of new computer buyers have a computer/laptop running Windows and they are just fine with...so I have no clue what point you are trying to make because Microsoft is doing just fine.
 
I honestly don't know why you keep trying to argue with me and bash this down my throat...as I stated in the beginning, I was deciding between Elk and Bosch...and I'm primarily looking for a security system with a few automation/customization benefits. Both of those would fit my needs...I don't need to spend tens of thousands of dollars. You seem to like to argue just to argue.

 

[jeditekunum]

You're very wrong there. The percent of DIYers that are as capable as professional installers and their own engineers is probably less then .0001%...Bosch, for example, caters mostly to commercial businesses...I don't know too many Walmarts or McDonald's managers who are going to install the alarm in their own store. And I have no clue in what world you live in...like the other poster beat me to saying...The overwhelming majoring of new computer buyers have a computer/laptop running Windows and they are just fine with...so I have no clue what point you are trying to make because Microsoft is doing just fine.
 
I honestly don't know why you keep trying to argue with me and bash this down my throat...as I stated in the beginning, I was deciding between Elk and Bosch...and I'm primarily looking for a security system with a few automation/customization benefits. Both of those would fit my needs...I don't need to spend tens of thousands of dollars. You seem to like to argue just to argue.

 
And yet here you are on this forum asking for opinions. Lots of DIYers here. And elsewhere. My point is obviously not being understood. If it doesn't cost a company anything to publish/open an API and then sell any number of additional panels then that's extra business. Period.
 
I never said Windows was gone. Just declining. And it is. You started this thread complaining about the age of a vendors Windows software. Yep, there are reasons for that and it isn't entirely incompetence on the part of the vendor. As for the shift in the computing market and the revenue that vanished, again, its just fact. Not arguing with anybody, just stating facts.
 
I'm not arguing with you. I said get the Elk if you are happy with it. I may end up with an Elk too but it won't be because its a wonderful product but because there aren't any other better options.
 
I come here to understand these products at a greater depth than vendor marketing. As such, I expect balanced, fair, and accurate information. Pardon me for trying to add that for others.

 

[tmbrown97]

I'll admit - I didn't read every post thoroughly, but skimmed the majority of it.
 
There's a dividing line here... the people who cater to pros get a lot of pressure to keep DIYers out of their space.  I tinker in the pro space and have accounts and access not available to DIYers - and a common theme is protecting margins.  You don't want people to be able to price shop you on the internet - and the last thing you want is a DIYer screwing up a system you installed and calling you to fix it... if you can imagine, they call and say something went wrong, so you roll a truck and find that someone has changed a bunch of stuff - now you've invested time and have to try to charge for that time... To avoid all this, the pros will generally put pressure on to close out DIYers.  Elk and HAI danced that dance very carefully and kinda hid their support for us.  Dean Roddey knows a bit about all this, as he was in the same boat trying to figure out who his target audience was.
 
Unfortunately, all these consumer-based products have really screwed up the market - commoditizing a simpler version of the technologies that used to only be available to high end properties - and though they're never as good, they're generally "close enough" - and most are cloud controlled and require monthly fees as a substitute for having someone knowledgeable about networking and integration to tie it all together for you.  The dividing rift between these two types of control/automation (diy/consumer vs pro) seem to growing, and it's hurting the automation businesses like Elk, Simply Automated, and others.  The bigger players, like Crestron, and Control 4 are able to hang on by being niche to high end residences and commercial... these lower-end markets were never really a thing to them.
 
As for your search for technologies (alarm, lighting, whatever) - is to try to figure out what you want to use to tie it all together, then look to see what they integrate with and support.  You'll see that, while super dated, the Elk has some of the best integration... but you can explore SmartThings, RTI, HomeSeer, CQC, or whatever you want to use to tie everything together and start making a list of what technologies they support.  That should help guide your decision.  I do that before even getting too invested in how cool or flexible some new thing is - if I can't tie it in, it's worthless.

 

[jeditekunum]

I understand that the evolving world is an increasingly tough place for pros. Part of the problem is inflation marches on and most peoples income is flat or doesn't keep up. Those people would never have and never will purchase pro services.
 
I suspect that there is a part of the security industry that essentially rents a panel along with their monitoring service. That seems like a reasonable approach for those that don't have the time or knowledge to DIY. In that environment they shouldn't expect to be able to reprogram or install new hardware. Then there are many dealers/installers that want to sell the system and still keep it locked up. I understand what you are saying about this. Again, for those people that are ok with that model, carry on. I don't know what the recent policy is but DirecTV used to make people pay for receivers/DVRs and yet DirecTV still "owned" them. In my opinion, if the vendor still owns the box or does not allow the consumer to modify or program it then I will look for every other option to avoid doing so.
 
DIY install and programming is about cost and control. Vendors that won't sell because they are protecting an imaginary bogus professional just don't get it and lose business opportunity as a result.
 
The underlying problem with these proprietary security systems is that they are not anything special and they stubbornly refuse to accept the model of any other computer or software system. Over time features go up and costs go down. What used to be advanced is commodity. Commodity no longer has the value they think it deserves. Nor are features keeping up with the advancement that is expected. So you've got outdated crippled overpriced products. Its a recipe that has caused the extinction of many an industry.
 
Really the only thing preventing open source security systems being widespread is the hurdle of getting certifications. The hardware necessary to make a panel is nearly free. I've got a module with ethernet, 1+Ghz quad-core ARM processor, 512MB of memory that cost me $10. Runs "Unix" (Linux or FreeBSD). Way more power/capacity than any alarm panel processor. Trivial to do any level of automation desired. The barrier to entry to market for a completely open $100 security and automation system with capabilities far beyond what is in the market now is not high. Its no wonder that the industry is seeing growing disruption. Like many before, its time to adapt or die.
 

 

[Dean Roddey]

As someone who worked his entire career in enterprise computing (Fortune 500 computer manufacturers and ISVs) I can tell you that your view is very limited. Its not enough to look purely at the revenue of the operating system itself, you have to consider the entire ecosystem. Proprietary operating systems were once a key stickiness for proprietary hardware. First proprietary operating systems and their hardware were destroyed by less-proprietary Unix-based platforms. Then free operating systems destroyed those partially-proprietary ones. There isn't enough space on this page to list all the operating systems, processor types, computing ecosystems, and entire corporations that are GONE. So yes, many billions/yr in revenue vanished.

 
That's sort of a different argument though. Obviously there was going to be a move towards more standardized hardware as we came out of the adolescent years of big iron. I would argue that was more of a hardware driven change. Once that change occurred, towards more standardized, higher performing hardware made possible by chip manufacturers, then people could build computer systems who weren't remotely in the business of creating hard core operating systems. So they had to have something. That could have created a marketplace for alternative OSes, but in that big iron back end world (and high end workstation world that existed for a while there) the technical expertise was there to adapt academically driven open source Unix variations, so they tended to go that direction.
 
But, in computer terms, that change is sort of ancient history now and I'm not sure it's all that relevant to the topic at hand. This is a quite different world from that.
 
Anyhoo, kind of gear we are talking about here is the stuff you don't really want going low end and super-commodity. It's stuff that needs to be overbuilt and robust and reliability is key. You can't have high reliability if you are churning out new versions constantly. It just won't happen. So pro level automation hardware is never going to be oriented towards the latest whiz-bang technology. You get a lot of complaints about that from folks who are coming to this world from places where bugs and failures are common-place, and they don't understand that they can either have cheap and encompassing the latest fads, or they can have lower volume, more expensive, over-built and reliable.
 
The bulk of people will, as they always have, go the cheap and note completely reliable route. They were already doing that for decades in the DIY automation world, X-10 anyone? Until large numbers of people are prepared to pay for high reliability, it remains a niche market and the price stays higher because of that.
 
Anyway, that was a somewhat incomprehensible ramble, but there was a point in there somewhere. It is left as an exercise for the reader to locate it.
 
 

A side-effect of all that is that hardware and software, and the people who make them, have, for the most part, been severely devalued to commodity status. The majority of "end users" on the planet you refer to are obviously Windows and that is an ecosystem that is slowly eroding. A growing ecosystem, smartphones and pads and Apple computers, don't generate much software revenue - generally free or the applications are relatively inexpensive. Mostly supporting the sale of the hardware.

 
I don't think it's quite as dire as you make out, but of course that has happened. I would argue here that this is driven by a move from selling products to selling customers. Once you had a company like Google come along, making vast money by basically giving away its products in order to get customers who it can sell to advertisers, then the writing was on the wall sort of. Obviously ad based systems had been out there for a long time, but not in the same sort of way. Your TV couldn't tell who was watching it and whatnot, and folks who make physical products can't give it away in mass numbers in order to get customers.
 
That creates a situation where folks like Microsoft, who wanted to sell an actual product, get screwed and have to start working towards the same sort of scheme in order to complete. It sucks, I agree wholeheartedly with that.
 
One thing that does help us in the automation world is that more and more people are starting to get how undesirable cloud based solutions are. Every outage gets a lot of negative attention for significant cloud-based products. There is starting to be somewhat of a backlash, which hopefully will grow.

 

[Dean Roddey]

Really the only thing preventing open source security systems being widespread is the hurdle of getting certifications. The hardware necessary to make a panel is nearly free. I've got a module with ethernet, 1+Ghz quad-core ARM processor, 512MB of memory that cost me $10. Runs "Unix" (Linux or FreeBSD). Way more power/capacity than any alarm panel processor. Trivial to do any level of automation desired. The barrier to entry to market for a completely open $100 security and automation system with capabilities far beyond what is in the market now is not high. Its no wonder that the industry is seeing growing disruption. Like many before, its time to adapt or die.

 
Again, it's very easy to SAY that. But if it was that easy and that lucrative, it would have already been done. There's nothing preventing thousands of companies from creating such a product, folks who are not at all beholden to the current status quo. These things don't have to come from the existing traditional companies in the field. Given that they aren't doing it, you might begin to suspect that your view is maybe over-simplistic vis-a-vis the realities of the marketplace.
 
The very fact that it's uber-commodity is one clue. Throw in the fact that it's a product addressing a very serious, and potentially legally messy field of home security, and that it will almost certainly be a high support overhead product when sold to end users, and that doesn't add up to a very encouraging picture really.

 

[jeditekunum]

Anyhoo, kind of gear we are talking about here is the stuff you don't really want going low end and super-commodity. It's stuff that needs to be overbuilt and robust and reliability is key. You can't have high reliability if you are churning out new versions constantly. It just won't happen. So pro level automation hardware is never going to be oriented towards the latest whiz-bang technology. You get a lot of complaints about that from folks who are coming to this world from places where bugs and failures are common-place, and they don't understand that they can either have cheap and encompassing the latest fads, or they can have lower volume, more expensive, over-built and reliable.

 
Couldn't agree more.
 
A problem that is common to many of these vendors is that they see automation as a business opportunity. They expand their security system to add automaton features and jack up the price. OmniPro and Elk are the two obvious vendors that have been doing this for a long time. Their automation was once wiz-bang. And then they left it to rot.
 
The others all prevent automation integration with their latest generation products. Apparently hoping for revenue somehow out of that.
 
In my view, based on a career as a large-scale systems-level software engineer/architect, is that security should stick to security. Do it well and be stable as you say. And provide complete and open API/protocol for integration with other systems. Those other systems could be 3rd party commercial software (Crestron, Savant, Control4, ...) or DIYer. All those options will provide better automation features and will keep up with the wiz-bang technology.
 
That's what I'm looking for and I suspect many DIYers are too. It appears the only way to do that is either throw away money on duplicate yet weaker functionality (Elk, OmniPro) or go with a prior generation product (DSC 18xx + IT-100 and/or EnvisaLink for example).
 

Again, it's very easy to SAY that. But if it was that easy and that lucrative, it would have already been done. There's nothing preventing thousands of companies from creating such a product, folks who are not at all beholden to the current status quo. These things don't have to come from the existing traditional companies in the field. Given that they aren't doing it, you might begin to suspect that your view is maybe over-simplistic vis-a-vis the realities of the marketplace.
 
The very fact that it's uber-commodity is one clue. Throw in the fact that it's a product addressing a very serious, and potentially legally messy field of home security, and that it will almost certainly be a high support overhead product when sold to end users, and that doesn't add up to a very encouraging picture really.

 
Absolutely right. There is no $ in it. And there isn't any incentive for someone to open source a solution when an old rusty and cheap panel can be integrated with.
 
Although the cloud backlash could redirect the flood of cheapo stuff.
 
It is interesting to see the prices on the recent Interlogix UltraSync. Many modern features for the price of an old rusty panel. The only obvious thing I can find "wrong" with it is that they won't publish their API.

 

[Dean Roddey]

It's a more and more common thing, as being discussed above. The 'old school' folks are trying to sell a product, so it's in their interest to create and publish a good API and make their products as integration friendly as possible. A lot of new companies seem to be more interested in selling a service, so that they can lock in recurring monthly revenue, and it's in their interests not to expose anything, so that it all has to go through them. The device is just a way to sell the service.
 
Of course that also means that, if they go under, and most of them will if they are not backed by some deep pockets, the product goes with them because the service goes away. Another good reason to stick with the old school folks, 

 

[tmbrown97]

I'll just add a few points... this whole Pro vs. DIY thing is not imaginary.  It was a real fight that many pro systems went through.  There was a point when Elk and HAI were being pressured to leave us high and dry.  Not just that, but supporting a pro is easier.  You train a pro once and they can install hundreds of systems and never call again.  If a pro has a modem quit working or a rule or some board quit working, chances are, they have another one on the truck they can swap it out for - thus absolutely confirming the problem.  With a DIY'er, you're going to end up fielding a call and helping troubleshoot - and it's basically one-off training someone and it benefits only that one system; not someone who installs hundreds of them.  I honestly used to see this the same way you do - but over time I started to understand the issue a bit better.
 
I do also agree that it feels like these products are dying on the vine.  I would suspect that if you look at Elk, they're running on a skeleton staff with little foresight or operational or managerial ability to innovate and keep up.  If they could, they'd be working on more integrations, better touchscreens, a replacement for the XEP (ethernet module) that's more robust; even some cloud-based offerings to help bridge into some of these more modern systems.  Simply-Automated just shut down their .Inc business and has a message saying they'll be back soon as a new LLC... I'd sure love to hear the story behind that, and sure hope they come back!  They have a great product and great service too, but IMO missed a huge opportunity to make their products more professional - by designing better faceplates and offering a laser engraving service.  That would let them compete on looks alone with RadioRA2 and blow them away in functionality - but the laser-printed cheap paper labels just look like crap and that along will keep them in the prosumer space at best.
 
The other thing is that these systems may have gone about as far as they can.  Security is seriously a simple thing - inputs/outputs/timers/CO Communication... yeah, it's probably about a $10 board these days to make, but at the end of the day, they still have to bake in distribution, tech support, ongoing development, warranty, UL certifications, etc... so they need a good reason to update all that.  But, as I said before, they could be making huge strides in their interface and integration capabilities.
 
@jeditekunum - you referenced the idea of renting the panels and charging for service... that's almost the majority of the security business.  The guys selling the alarms know absolutely nothing of what's going on behind the scenes - they just know "connect this wire here, that wire there, and get the customer's credit card number".  Most don't give a rat's ass about the hardware - it's a cheap commodity that they make up in monitoring fees.  If you look at it, monitoring should be under $10/month and generally is on the wholesale side... they charge ~$40/month for a minimum year, but hope to go many years.  Installing the system is the crappy part of the job - what they want is to get in and get you hooked on the monitoring, where they make their real money.   Most panels do have dealer lockout codes too which they use to keep others from taking over their systems - which is why there's also a whole market around getting around that - by using dial-capture methods that let your alarm think they're calling the original central-station, then they hijack it and send it to their own. 
 
All that said, I think the consumer devices are starting to lead because people are moving away from traditionally monitored alarms anyway.  Years ago, we told people they were idiots if they wanted to self-monitor... but the reality is, these days, the police won't respond for an unconfirmed alarm (well they'll stop by a few hours and leave a note on your door) - and you're more likely to get a fine from false alarms.  Now the whole industry has kinda moved to where you're better off getting alerts on your smartphone and checking your cameras before calling the cops yourself.  That's the only chance (having a verified burglar) you have of ever getting an actual prompt police response and getting them to do anything other than file an after-the-fact report. 
 
I'd love to see a new panel come along - something up to date... if you look around, there was an April Fools joke many years ago about a new panel designed by the folks here with all the power you could ever need to do just about anything...  What I'd really love is something like Control4 that's not so tightly locked down.  But as you've noticed, that drives the sales and ongoing development isn't the selling of a $50 switch one time - it's selling the $200 controller and the $10/month subscription for years to come.  Those are the companies that have a chance of being around in a few years - but that's the death by a thousand cuts - having to run 10 different apps and pay a bunch of $3-$14/month fees...  but that's what appeals to the masses - the people who wouldn't know how to configure port forwarding on their router, but can click a few buttons and be online with remote access.
 
/rant

 

[jeditekunum]

The 'old school' folks are trying to sell a product, so it's in their interest to create and publish a good API and make their products as integration friendly as possible.

 
I agree it should be in their interests but apparently they don't see it that way:
 
DSC NEO
Bosch G
Interlogix UltraSync
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