Elk M1G + UT 449CSTE Smoke failure rate

[Linwood]

I was woken up by a trouble alert on our system today.  First by the voiced trouble, then very quickly by Alarm Relay calling.
 
This was the second alarm that appears to have failed.  Just a few weeks ago another also had trouble.  When tested (magnet on the side) the LED code indicates "Uncorrectable hardware fault".  Well sort of.
 
The first alarm does that consistently when tested with the magnet, as it is supposed to.
 
This alarm does it when tested with the magnet, but also does it for a while (maybe 20 seconds) when it is reset, without testing with the magnet.  
 
Nonetheless, it's self diagnostics say it is failing.
 
These are both just a bit over 2 years old.  They are probably under warranty (now that I have a second it may be worth trying to figure out how to get it replaced).
 
My question is this: are these known to be flakey units?   I have I think 8 of this model specifically, and two have failed.
 
If they are known to be flakey, recommendation for one (Smoke + heat + power supervision relay)? 
 
If they are not known to be flakey, any ideas what might be causing this?   They are in an air conditioned home, no temperature or other variations, relatively clean, high ceilings, no smoke or other fumes likely (especially on one of these, the other is not too far from the kitchen).
 
PS. The internal chamber when I pulled them down was spotless to the eye, and cleaning did not cause it to be any happier -- besides, the error LED code is not one that indicates cleaning helps.  
 
 
 

 

[Del91574]

Seems like I've read about a lot of people having issues with these units on here.
 
The largest item is what sort of trouble is occuring? Is the supervision relay opening up and failing? Is the detector failing it's sensitivity diagnostics?
 
I haven't used any GE 449 units in at least 14 years....their engineering goes back further than that, not to mention how many times the product line/company has been bought and sold since it was ESL.
 
Personally, I'd get away from a detector with an integrated supervision relay. You're limiting your choice and pigeonholing yourself with a single model detector and doubling the amount of components that can fail within the detector itself.

 

[Linwood]

Seems like I've read about a lot of people having issues with these units on here.
 
The largest item is what sort of trouble is occuring? Is the supervision relay opening up and failing? Is the detector failing it's sensitivity diagnostics?
 
I haven't used any GE 449 units in at least 14 years....their engineering goes back further than that, not to mention how many times the product line/company has been bought and sold since it was ESL.
 
Personally, I'd get away from a detector with an integrated supervision relay. You're limiting your choice and pigeonholing yourself with a single model detector and doubling the amount of components that can fail within the detector itself.

 
In my case they are failing their own diagnostics.  The problem begins as a trouble indication, and when you do the magnet test it blinks once per second indicating a unfixable fault.
 
One however was very weird -- it didn't give a trouble indication EXCEPT on reset.  On reset it went into trouble mode for a minute or so, then came out on its own.  But then when tested with the magnet it showed a hard failure.  
 
The other gave a trouble indication on its own, then gave a "clean me" and I did, then it gave a hard failure.  Unless I did something bad (remove optical block, blow off with a can of air, reinstall block, wait a bit (since it's not really air) and power up).
 
As to getting away from the integrated relay, it was convenient.  It's summer here (SW Florida) and I really hate the idea of going back into the attic for several of these.  Do the non-integrated have room for the relay below the ceiling somewhere in the unit?  Or is it expected to be in the attic?  (Ok, yes, I know that's a minor thing -- come visit a florida attic in summer though!)
 
I think I'll order a couple more of these just to get them going again (it's SO easy to just pop in the circuit board), maybe see if these are warrantied (I found one place that said 12 months and one 3 years), but if I get more hard failures it's time to stop buying them I think.
 
Recommendations for reliable ones? 

 

[Del91574]

These units were essentially "obsolete" 3-4 years ago on the spare parts side. They may still exist in some format, but almost all the service parts have been listed obsolete for that long.
 
Convenience aside, any smoke detector installed on an electrical box has more than enough room for the relay and doesn't require climbing into an attic to access. Personally, I'm a fan of the System Sensor units, they have a big hole in the mounting plate for the cable and relay to pass through. Also separate base/head design makes replacement and service a heck of a lot easier.
 
Sounds like the drift compensation is failing on the units.

 

[Linwood]

These units were essentially "obsolete" 3-4 years ago on the spare parts side. They may still exist in some format, but almost all the service parts have been listed obsolete for that long.
 
Convenience aside, any smoke detector installed on an electrical box has more than enough room for the relay and doesn't require climbing into an attic to access. Personally, I'm a fan of the System Sensor units, they have a big hole in the mounting plate for the cable and relay to pass through. Also separate base/head design makes replacement and service a heck of a lot easier.
 
Sounds like the drift compensation is failing on the units.

 
Well this may be one of those frequent cases where I learn something new -- I didn't put these in boxes.  I poked a hole in the sheet rock and ran the wire into the unit, which was screwed in from the other side.

Is there any code requirement they be in boxes? 
 
I'll look at System Sensor, thanks.

 

[Linwood]

Actually I gave up, I couldn't find anyone with them in stock, so ordered some System Sensor ones with EOL relay. 

 

[Del91574]

No code requirement for boxes, sealing or any other special requirements.
 
The ESL units are a lot more "open" internally compared to the System Sensor units...but if you have that much of a draft to draw that much dust and dirt into a detector you have bigger issues.

 

[Linwood]

No code requirement for boxes, sealing or any other special requirements.
 
The ESL units are a lot more "open" internally compared to the System Sensor units...but if you have that much of a draft to draw that much dust and dirt into a detector you have bigger issues.

 
I must be going senile -- All of the 449CSTE's were replacing old 110v alarms and had boxes.   However....
 
HOWEVER... 
 
Your discussions on multiple zones per detector has had me worried since I first read about them, as I was not seeing the plethora of reports.   So while replacing these two bad detectors, I got an RRS-MOD (I had been depending on speakers in the bedrooms before, but figured this would remove any cloud of code issue) and set everything up, and started testing and.... 
 
ALL BUT ONE of the 449CSTE's power supervision relays were stuck.  A couple became unstuck on shaking (i.e. removal) but the reason I wasn't seeing trouble/restoral messages was because they weren't being issued.
 
For those who don't know - the 449CSTE's (i.e. "E" part) have a built in power supervision relay, removing the need for an additional device.  Very nice and handy and one reason I bought them a couple years ago.
 
I've tested one so far on a bench, but the others I have tested by selectively removing the power (at the panel) and not seeing a change in voltage from the resistor being taken out.  One I was removing when it (while not powered) became unstuck and gave a trouble.
 
So except for one (which could be a fluke and have been shook) apparently over the last 2 years had their supervision relays stick in the powered-on position.  Thus when I was doing smoke resets, I was not getting troubles NOT because the M1G was somehow intelligent, but because they weren't working.
 
The reason I dug deeper into this was, when I put in the two new SS models, those gave trouble alerts on reset, as DELInstallations indicated they should, plus one other GE.   So a big thank you to DELInstallations for being persistent in not just the "don't put smokes on separate zones" but in explaining why.   It's that "why" that kept me after this, as I wasn't seeing what he said to expect.  And rather than being "hey, the M1G is really smart" it was "the smokes are broken".  
 
I guess I'm buying a bunch of new smoke detectors and relays now.  SInce these are all wired (now with RRS-MOD) I'm inclined to leave them as-is.  I report both via TCP and cellular, and so there's no interference with phone line (e.g. to call 911 or respond to the CS), and the internet reporting is near instant.  But I obviously want them to report trouble when their diagnostics fail.
 
DO NOT USE GE 449CSTE's!!!!!!
 
And if you have them -- go pull the power and see if you get a trouble.  Makes sure the power supervision relay works, as it is necessary not only for power supervision but for diagnostic reporting as trouble.

 

[Linwood]

As a slight followup - All of the units started working after tapping them.  In one case pretty emphatic tapping.    Afterwards removal of power is resulting in the expected trouble from all units.  I did so four times and all worked each time.
 
By the way, with everything working, a smoke reset NOT in an alarm condition only reports one restoral for each smoke, not a trouble.
 
So I guess I could go around every month or so banging on them... or replace them.  
 
Sigh.

 

[Linwood]

While I'm doing this, on the chance it helps others, below is the sequence of events when things are (mostly) working from an alarm through the restoral, using an IP and Uplink communicator together, as seen from the CS: 
 
Using smoke in a can set off zone 13
 
Alarm on that one sounded, sounded, M1G alarm (speakers) went off, and all wired smokes sounded  (not completely sure of sequence it was all pretty fast).
 
12:34:18 - IP alarm received for zone 13
12:34:43 - Uplink alarm received for zone 13
 
Waited a bit then acknowledged alarm  on panel
 
All M1G alarms silenced, and all smokes silenced.
 
A few seconds later the original smoke continued to sound (I'm not completely sure it silenced at all, as it was intermittent as expected, but it was supposed to keep sounding).
 
Observed zone was still in alarm state, but as expected M1G was not reporting alarm since it had not reset.
 
Went to panel and did a smoke reset.
 
12:37:14 Restoral received for zone 13 via IP
12:37:16 Restoral received for zone 14 via IP
12:37:18 Restoral received for zone 16 via IP
12:37:20 Restoral received for zone 12 via IP
12:37:23 Restoral received for zone 11 via IP 
12:37:34 Restoral received for zone 11 via Uplink
12:37:43 Restoral received for zone 13 via Uplink
12:37:53 Restoral received for zone 14 via Uplink
12:38:15 Restoral received for zone 16 via Uplink
12:38:24 Restoral received for zone 12 via Uplink
 
Now what, you might ask if you noticed I mentioned 6 zones, happened to the other zone? 
 
Well, the relay is stuck again on zone 15.  And what's more -- after checking all this, I pulled the power lead to all smokes again, and got the following display -- now two smokes are stuck.
 

 
Notice zones 13 and 15 are showing an EOLR voltage of 7 volts -- well there's no power to those detectors.   And... as I type this in, 13 finally clicked and showed trouble also, about 5 minutes after I pulled power.
 
So what is the conclusion: 
 
- These smokes with EOL supervision relays are worthless junk.
- Multiple zones for smokes results in a lot of restore messages, but no extra alarm messages
- Smoke alarm polarity reversal is not producing trouble messages 
- Smoke alarm polarity reversal, or restore to normal, is not producing trouble messages nor restoral messages
- Smoke reset is not producing trouble messages (that's a bit of a surprise)
- Only smoke reset (power pull for 5 seconds) is producing restoral messages from all smokes
- IP is pretty fast (2-3 seconds per code) 
- Uplink is fairly slow (about 10 seconds per, sometimes a lot more) 
 
My guess is dialup may be worse but I don't have that connected.
 
For clarity -- while reversal and smoke reset does not produce trouble indication transmissions, pulling the smoke power (when the relay doesn't stick) does result in both trouble and (when restored) the restoral codes going to the CS, as expected.
 
Oh, and maybe this was obvious to all but me, but being a backup telephone does not prevent the backup from communicating if the primary succeeds.  The uplink is set up as a secondary, but it is still going off each time.  
 
Anyway... thought since I had all the details handy would pass them on for people considering multiple zones for smokes. 
 
Or anyone with these 449CSTE's!

 

[Del91574]

Just $.02 9/10 to consider based on experiences with the hardware and some field knowledge
 
1. Yes, smokes with integral supervision relays are really a lesson in futility. The failure of a single component necessitates it's entire replacement instead of just the relay.
 
2. Depends on the panel, but you will not see an additonal alarm, but you will see a trouble on polarity reversal. If you are not, it may be due to the zone response time settings. Also depends on how well the relay is protected via diodes for reverse polarity.
 
3. I'd be shocked that the fire reset is not producing troubles unless the M1 specifically is supressing troubles upon reset (also known as power up delay/stabilization delay). Would also look at the RC's specifically, usually that's the variable on panels. Same goes with swinger settings.
 
4. Fire reset should generate a trouble on non-affected system smokes and then a restoral report when the zone returns to normal...relates to #3 above.
 
5. IP is fast, so is cellular that is ported via IP. The concerns come into play once the signals are out of your control and in ISP land.
 
6. Uplink is actually fast. The issues arise if the signal is being ported into the CS via panel emulation instead of a direct TCP/IP port to the receiver. Usually a viewed inherent delay is going to be the panel not truly performing a dual redundant path at the same time....unfortunately, even "smart" panels aren't that smart.
 
4.

 

[Linwood]

2. Depends on the panel, but you will not see an additonal alarm, but you will see a trouble on polarity reversal. If you are not, it may be due to the zone response time settings. Also depends on how well the relay is protected via diodes for reverse polarity.
 
3. I'd be shocked that the fire reset is not producing troubles unless the M1 specifically is supressing troubles upon reset (also known as power up delay/stabilization delay). Would also look at the RC's specifically, usually that's the variable on panels. Same goes with swinger settings.
 
4. Fire reset should generate a trouble on non-affected system smokes and then a restoral report when the zone returns to normal...relates to #3 above.

 
Based on your prior comments I was expecting these.  Seeing nothing at all is what made me dig deeper, but in repeated testing I did not see trouble on either the polarity reversal or the smoke reset.  the former doesn't surprise me too much as it's presumably pretty fast, maybe faster than the power supervision relay can physically move, maybe faster than the loop response.
 
When I get the new smokes and go through their testing, I'll experiment a bit further.  The smokes are set to the default response in the global settings, but I see in the manual it says that smokes should be on fast loop response.  I'll experiment a bit there and see if that affects trouble indications (not sure if it's trouble or alarm or both). 
 
It would not surprise me that the smoke reset masks trouble.  It makes a whole lot of sense (absent violating some rule) that a purposeful removal of power should not show a fault until and unless power is restored and the fault is still there.  I don't see that written down anywhere, but it is not surprising.  I am not masking it in rules (I don't seven see a rule I could mask it with).
 
Unfortunately I don't have a scope to measure (for example) whether there is an actual fault indication in the interval when power reverses or not.  It would obviously be too fast for a simple voltmeter or ohmmeter.  But I spent a lot of time testing this (partly because I didn't see the ()**$#**@#$* switch on the RRS-MOD at first and was chasing my tail when it wouldn't reverse), and I am sure that the panel is not reporting faults out.  
 
More here when I get it replaced and do another round of testing.  Wish I had a scope to see what's really happening during the events electrically.

 

[Linwood]

OK, new smokes came in, and I replaced all the GE units this evening.  
 
I also did some experimentation while testing the new setup.
 
No matter the settings, when doing a smoke reset from the M1G, no troubles are reported in the log, or via the communicator, only one restoral event for each smoke zone.
 
When doing a fire alarm, including power reversal, no troubles are reported during the alarm condition and during the restoral, using the default settings.
 
If, however, I set a zone to "fast loop", when the reversing relay reverses (and it appears to do so by pulsing), each pulse results in a trouble event in the M1G log.  What's odd about that is none of them were reported by the communicator (the alarm itself was, as was the openning (i.e. acknowledge) and subsequent restorals.  My guess is that the M1G decides not to communicate a trouble indicating while actually in a fire alarm state, but that's just a guess.  However, it didn't communicate it, which is good since they were happening about once every 2-3 seconds.
 
While not definitive, it seems clear to me that the M1G is screening off trouble indications during a smoke reset, but that the relay operations for reversal are quick enough that the default "slow loop" response is not seeing them during power reversal.  If you set it on fast loop, however, this can cause a lot of events to the panel (though at least in my observation not to communication).
 
Off hand I can't see any good reason to use fast loop, the difference in 40ms and 400ms with regard to detecting a fire alarm seems pretty moot.  Though to be fair, the manual does say use fast loop for smokes (but without explanation).
 
So DELInstallations is very right about how much extra complexity having multiple smoke zones adds.  I think the M1G manages them pretty well, however, and since I've done the work, I'm staying this way.  I get zone specific trouble and alarm indications this way, and perhaps more importantly the wiring was already done before I read his advice.   :unsure:
 
However... MY advice... stay away from these junky GE smoke detectors.  I'm now throwing away about $300 worth of 2 year old smoke detectors because of not trusting them to work correctly.  Probably they were safe for alarm conditions, but if they won't report trouble correctly, who knows if they will report alarms.
 
 

 

[Linwood]

Since i was reviving another old thread, I thought I would follow up.  I got all the System Sensor 4WTA-B detectors and separate EOLR-1 relays.  It was a bit of a pain to get the EOLR's in.  I also took the opportunity to wire and test all with the RRS-MOD unit so as to get simultaneous sounding from all alarms, something I had omitted and appreciate the descriptions on this forum for bringing up.    I tested in various failure and alarm modes, all worked.
 
It's been a year, not one false indication of problems or alarms, I've tested several times with spray and once with actual smoke and everything keeps working.
 
I'm VERY disappointed in the GE units, it was a complete waste, and a safety issue to fail in the way they were as new as they were.
 
And thanks for DELInstallations on numerous posts on the subject that helped me understand things.