ELK-M1XSLZW/VRC0P+3 vs. ISY 994iZW w/ Elk Module

[nicholass817]

Hi Everyone!!
 
So, I've settled on Z-wave as the primary communication protocol for automation in my house, and am about to pull the trigger and start acquiring the pieces necessary to make things happen.  I just keep flipping back and forth between the 2 options listed in the topic title.  
 
Are there drawbacks or advantages to either setup?  I realize that the ISY would be quite a bit more robust, but not having worked with either I don't know if the additional cost is worth it.  Are there better alternatives out there that I may have overlooked that play nice with an Elk M1?  
 
Any advice or comments are greatly appreciated.  

 

[jon102034050]

I don't have any experience with the VRC0P, but I recently purchased the 994iZW and I can say it works really pretty well. I came from a Vera 2 as my primary zwave controller previously, and that thing was a pile compared to the ISY. The UI, although java, is workable and 10x faster and more reliable than the Vera. I've actually started moving some of my elk logic into ISY because it seems more intuitive to me.

 

[jlegault]

I've been through 4 zwave systems now. Every switch in the house is Zwave - about 70 modules, including a few locks, motions sensors, and stand-alone switch for decorative lighting. I started with the original Elk Zwave module, that turned out to have a fundamental design flaw with big networks and was discontinued (with no refund, or remedy I might add). Second system was HomeSeer 2 with a Homeseer Z-troller talking to the ELK. This was by far the most robust, even when using the elk as triggers for scenes - but there was a known bug with HS2 where it would corrupt the database in an unrecoverable way. I somehow got painted into a corner with a backup gone wrong one day, and ended up having to start from scratch. So I thought, I might as well try HS3. That was a journey of hardship. The zwave network would lock up, HS3 would crash or peg the CPU on the server. It was pretty much a weekly fix or reboot. I really didn't see any benefit to HS3, so I got pissed off one day and moved to ISY. For all my anger towards HomeSeer, they did know zwave better than anyone. The Z-troller had a battery, so you could run around the house add/removing devices, and then plug back in to sync. They also perform a nightly "defrag" on the network, and as a result, the entire system responded immediately (when HS was working)
 
ISY has a few issues, but is reliable overall. 
 
1) You need a long ethernet cable and extension cord to move the unit around the house to add/remove nodes in the network. I don't understand what they were thinking....it's just infeasible to leave it in a closet somewhere and build out a network. I found that this was the only way to get it setup. 
2) It supports maybe 70% of the devices out there. Homeseer seemed to go out of their way to update their system for special devices as they came out, ones that used extended features.  ISY did not support 5 of my devices. A couple old switches, like the V1 circa 2005 kind, my HomeSeer multi-sensor/motion sensor, one of my original Z-wave locks, a fibaro rgbw controller (that can be used to control colored LED light strips), and a homeseer moisture sensor. That was 5 months ago, and ISY has not extended their Zwave functionality or device support since. I understand, they have to support a lot of things, and these devices are esoteric. But HomeSeer supported them just fine. 
3) It's very slow. It takes about 5 minutes for my house to completely turn off all 60 lights, with a fully functional network (no missing/unresponsive devices). It gets a bit better after you "heal" the network, but you have to do that manually, not something that can run daily as a job. Any one device can take a few seconds to respond. Now a lot of this is just the general issue with how zwave works - if you have an older device, or a flakey device, or a dead device, it can screw everything up. HS seemed to be able to get around this somehow - mainly with it's nightly network re-discovery process I'd guess. 
 
BUT, ISY always works - worst case it just takes a while. It's ELK integration is pretty good. It ended up being what I wanted, a totally embedded system - without OS and software stability BS I was experiencing with HS. But having said that, HS was more functional and higher performing, albeit much less reliable. 
 
I am not sure how much it would buy you over a native Vera interface to the ELK. I really have not gained much with the ISY over the original native ELK zwave interface, but I hear there are issues with a VRC0P setup which is why I went with ISY (and I was a bit gun-shy from my original experience with elk's solution for lighting). Having seen ISY in action, and not needing Insteon support - I don't see any benefit if the VRC0P works well. The elk programming language is superior IMO - despite the ISY being a controller, it's basically a slave to the ELK used only for lighting control. While ISY can do IR, I find myself gravitating to roomie remote. 
 
Oh, one last thing that ISY does well, that might be useful to you, is that you can send commands to it with http queries. Which means, load a URL and the ISY will do something - which is turning out be a good generic interface these days.
 
Hope this helps. 

 

[ddennerline]

Before picking a controller, you will want to determine which lighting manufacturer you will use for majority of your switches. There are several Z-Wave lighting manufacturers.
 
Also, how many lights/loads will you be installing? For a very large network having ability to install multiple secondary controllers might be beneficial. 70 modules is a pretty big network.
 
Will you want to install a wide variety of Z-Wave sensors?
 
A M1Elk XSLZW/VRC0P+3/VRUSB combination does work much better than the old M1XSP serial port solution; it's not perfect. But once running, solution does not crash. I can turn off a good number (>15) of lights and locks two doors in less than 15 seconds (using a group command). I tried using a Z-Wave thermostat, but found it wasn't very reliable. So I have stuck with Kwikset and Vizia+ (with one third party receptacle).

 

[nicholass817]

Thank you so much for the responses!!  It still seems to leave me questioning which route to take though...
 
My plan is to control ~50 light loads(leviton), 3 deadbolts(kwikset), 2 thermostats(???), and ~20 shades/blinds/curtains(somfy)...so 75 ish devices acquired over a looooong period of time.  For sensors I am sticking with Elk's wired and wireless offerings for now.  I have door contacts on all interior doors that have a light beyond them and will get the Elk 2 way motions as I expand control within each room of the house.  I did forget about the need to get the VRUSB, so that about equalizes the equipment cost for both options...would have to purchase a few modules for the ISY to make it really worth while though.  I do have to say that it would drive my better half absolutely nuts if it took 5 minutes for the ISY (or any solution) to turn all of the lights off after arming or sending the command....she's really impatient with technology.  
 
Guess I'll keep pondering and researching until I see the one thing that can sway me one way or another.  
 
Thanks again!

 

[picta]

Thank you so much for the responses!!  It still seems to leave me questioning which route to take though...
 
My plan is to control ~50 light loads(leviton), 3 deadbolts(kwikset), 2 thermostats(???), and ~20 shades/blinds/curtains(somfy)...so 75 ish devices acquired over a looooong period of time.  For sensors I am sticking with Elk's wired and wireless offerings for now.  I have door contacts on all interior doors that have a light beyond them and will get the Elk 2 way motions as I expand control within each room of the house.  I did forget about the need to get the VRUSB, so that about equalizes the equipment cost for both options...would have to purchase a few modules for the ISY to make it really worth while though.  I do have to say that it would drive my better half absolutely nuts if it took 5 minutes for the ISY (or any solution) to turn all of the lights off after arming or sending the command....she's really impatient with technology.  
 
Guess I'll keep pondering and researching until I see the one thing that can sway me one way or another.  
 
Thanks again!

 
I think you are approaching the problem from the wrong side. Is your goal to automate your lights, thermostats and shades in the best way possible, or is it to use z-wave devices? Z-wave technology is not robust enough to cover your listed needs, so you may be better off looking into a different solution. You already have Elk, so this limits your options. If you really like Isy, get Insteon devices, as it is its default technology. Most systems in HA are designed to work with their primary technology and the rest is an afterthought, therefore not going to be the most efficiently implemented. It is still the case today that the most reliable and flexible HA implementation is based on various technologies that are linked together by a central controller. You have Elk, its a good controller, but IMO the best lighting tech for it is RadioRA2. For somfy shades the best controller is RTS serial interface. Thermostats are going to be an issue unless they are hard-wired.  Alternatively, you could trade your Elk in for a HAI controller, and get UPB or zigbee (jetstream) switches that are very well integrated with HAI and not as expensive as RadioRA, somfy RTS controller and zigbee thermostats and locks. If you have a mac, throw in Haiku (now Space) and you can link in IP based devices (cameras, A/V etc.). HaikuHelper uses json API and allows integration with many other things. Good luck

 

[ddennerline]

Leviton's FAQ indicates that 64 Z-Wave devices is the maximum; although ZenSys says 128. This installation is pushing limits. Yes, there are much larger Z-Wave networks discussed in CT. For 50 switches, I am going to assume your house is large >4000sq/ft. The thing to keep in mind with Z-Wave is that all the controllers need to be less than 3 hops away farthest devices for reasonable performance. With a large house, packet latency/loss becomes a problem.
 
For a Z-Wave network this large, you will definitely want to buy either Leviton/Cooper switches, so network does not have to be polled. These switches support switch status notification (or association class).
 
If large house, you might be better off with RA2 as RA2 uses a different type of network topology along with different frequency (travels farther). You will spend significantly more on hardware, but you might spend less time getting your lighting network optimized. Elk supports RA2.

 

[nicholass817]

Well, that's 2 for RA2...using RA2 was actually part of my initial plan.  So much so that I took the online level 1 blast training courses offered by Lutron in order to program it myself, and to have the ability offer it to clients...healthcare architect with side gig doing design/build residential remodels and have done a couple new homes. Haven't been able to get anyone to really bite on the idea of RA2 due to the cost.  That is part of the reason I am trying to find another option to experiment with in my own house.  
 
The house is 2-story 2300 sf with exactly 50 loads that I would want to control...starting small and adding to it over a long period of time, or all at once if a giant wad of cash falls from the sky.  
 
If interested here is a spreadsheet I've been working on recently to help price this out.  LINK  3 different tabs with SA UPB, PCS UPB, and Leviton's z-wave.  It isn't totally complete because i can't find great solutions to a couple issues that exist in the house. One being the need for fans in our kiddos bedrooms.  They are wired for a single light with a single switch, and I want to control light and fan separately.  Another being that I have a light I want to control and the garbage disposal wired into a single gang box with 2 switches...I have to say i wasn't involved in the construction of this house and didn't see this during the one hour I was allowed on site while the walls were open.  
 
Maybe I need to rethink the whole thing and start re-researching a couple of the protocols that I threw out early on.  

 

[vc1234]

If large house, you might be better off with RA2 as RA2 uses a different type of network topology along with different frequency (travels farther).

According to the manual below, the RA2 range is not that great either without repeaters -- it's only 30 feet with one hub. Their topology appears to be simple radial, not mesh. 
 
http://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocumentLibrary/Main_Auxiliary%20Repeaters_369-227a.pdf
 
 
Having said that, I wanted to add my vote against zwave use, primarily due to lack of rudimentary diagnostic tools .

 

[cyberk]

Hi Team
 
I too am trying to make the same decision, my case is a little different...
 
I went Insteon for my home automation, I already own an ISY994 although I have yet to set it up, I bought it several years ago. I already bought the ELK-M1XSLZW but I still need to buy the extra components. I will be using the ISY as my insteon controller.
 
So options:
1. buy the z-wave upgrade for my isy994ir/pro and use it as both my insteon/zwave controller
2. finish buying what I need to turn the Elk into my zwave controller
 
What Z-Wave things do I plan on controlling:
For now, I only plan on controlling 2 schlage locks, but who knows where I'd end up, I definitely don't envision myself moving away from Insteon. 
 
What do you suggest?

 

[nicholass817]

What I ended up doing was getting an ISY with the ZW upgrade...If that means anything.  I've only had enough free funds to get 4 Insteon loads, and am about to bite the bullet and get 3 ZW deadbolts (thinking danalock?)

 

[cyberk]

I found out recently the ISY does not support multi-channel devices, I've reached out to their support team to make sure the Schlage Connect locks are supported.