Elk p212s voltages

[mikefamig]

Mike, you're reading way too much into this.
 
A transformer is a transformer is a transformer...only difference is how close to spec the output is and what the VA rating is....and in the case of the two units, it's close enough to really not matter in this case. The only variable is whether or not the secondary is fused or PTC protected.
 
Comparing the panel to the 212S is not a valid test.
 
Simplify. Remove the panel from the equation. Run the 212 as it's own standalone power supply and test from there. The connection to the panel is inconsequential and not important...it's only used to report to the M1 and/or allow the output to be triggered, the supply should run irregardless of a connection to the host panel. You're worrying and reading too much into it at this connection, same with the spare terminal and wiring. It's not part of the equation.

 
Thanks for this, I know that data A and data B monitor AC and DC voltages but did not know if they also regulated DC voltages.
 

The transformer(s) are fine in this case, nor is there a problem with the wall voltage. This is not part of the equation that needs to be investigated further. If the supply couldn't keep up with the load or charge the battery, then you'd have an idea to look here, but not in this case.

 
It doesn't hurt to look.....and what if the wall outlet voltage was too high?
 
 

The battery you have has 2 problems....first, it's not within spec of the maximum size the charger supports, so it may have damaged the supply (we don't know). Second, the battery, by heating up and boiling over, is damaged and not salvagable. The only thing that stopped it from splitting open or exploding are the vents. It is garbage now.

 
The overcharging will cause boiling off of some of the electrolyte and can have an effect on the metal plates but the worse that can happen is that it's life has been shortened. There is no danger in using it and I'll take my chances and use it until it fails.
 

If your aux power output is above 12.5 volts +/- a couple of tenths, with no battery connected, the supply portion is OK.
 
If your charging voltage is above 13.5, that's suspect. With a smaller battery within spec of the overall load (IE: 7ah) are the voltages/amperages within spec? Remember, Ohm's law applies...amperage goes down, voltage goes up. So if your unit can't keep up with the amperage output to charge the load, the voltage is going to inversely increase. The resistance really isn't changing in this application.

 
I connected a 12ah elk battery and there was very little difference. Then I decided to remov all wires from the board and start from scratch. It started up in stand alone mode and output voltage is stable ~13.9 volts. With this done I very carefully added added the DBH and XIN testing voltages along the way. It is now installed and holding just under 14 volts.

Realistically, I'd say three things are true in this case....the battery is oversized which may have contributed to damage on the charger (they put the limit for a reason).

 
I have to disagree with you about the higher battery AH rating damaging the electronics. If the voltage was greater than 12 volts I would agree with you but a higher amp hour rating won't hurt anything to the best of my knowledge. Current will flow based on load, not supply (ohms law).
 

At minimum the supply is not going to perform correctly on it's "smart" portion.

 
This may be true and concerns me.
 

Second, the battery is damaged and further usage is going to damage the components connected to it, so it's time to send it off to the scrapper. Third, the supply is already suspect, whether or not it worked properly before the battery connection can't be determined, but how it's performing at this point is suspect.

 
Overcharging the battery can boil off some electrolyte and shorten the battery life but I can't see any danger in using it until it does.I may replace it with the correct 12ah battery though because of the smart charging portion of this p212s. I did not know that the instructions called for a maximum 12ah batt when I bought the 18ah batt.

Pull the bandaid off and RMA the supply and buy a new battery within spec.

The supply now seems to be working after removing and replacing all connections excepting that it is not connected to the M1 control.. I attribute the problem to either one or more poor wiring connections or an intermittent problem with the supply. I am waiting to hear back from teh supplier as to a replacement under warranty.
 
Thanks for all your effort, Mike.

 

[mikefamig]

Update.....I just powered on the p212s after sitting off all night and it is up to it's old tricks. The output voltages are all over the place between ~13vdc and ~17vdc. I'm calling it an intermittent problem in the board and replacing it. I'll also get the smaller battery and use the 18ah on the work bench.
 
Mike.

 

[RAL]

I have to disagree with you about the higher battery AH rating damaging the electronics. If the voltage was greater than 12 volts I would agree with you but a higher amp hour rating won't hurt anything to the best of my knowledge. Current will flow based on load, not supply (ohms law).

 
In general, I agree with you that a larger capacity battery shouldn't cause damage to a charger.  Any reasonable charger must limit the charging current it delivers to the battery to avoid charging it too quickly.  Since a larger battery can handle a larger charging current, connecting it shouldn't damage the charger or the battery. 
 
On the other hand, you could damage a battery if you connect too small a battery to a charger, since the charger's current will be higher than the battery can handle.   So it surprises me that ELK doesn't specify a minimum battery size. 
 
Some "intelligent" chargers will impose a time limit on the charging time, say 16 hours or 24 hours.  The thinking is that if the charger can't charge the battery in a reasonable amount of time, then something must be wrong, so it gives up.   But in order to pick a time limit, the designers have to make some assumptions about the largest battery that needs to be charged.  Without choosing a maximum battery capacity, they can't set a time limit.
 
If you were to connect a battery that is larger than the maximum, the time limit will keep the battery from being fully charged, defeating the purpose of having a larger battery, and also possibly reducing its lifetime.  But it also wouldn't damage the charger.
 
The P212S contains a HCS08 microprocessor, which I suspect is controlling the charging process and could be setting such a time limit.  This could be the reason that ELK specifies a 12Ah maximum battery size.

 

[RAL]

It doesn't hurt to look.....and what if the wall outlet voltage was too high?

 
If the wall voltage was too high, the transformer output would be proportionally higher as well.  If the wall voltage was, say 130V, that would result in another 2V or so on the output of the transformer, which wouldn't be enough to harm the power supply.

 

[mikefamig]

RAL you are correct on all accounts. The installation maual specifies a 12ah maximum battery due to the limited charge rate of the p212s.I just received a reply email from elk concerning the 12ah maximum specification and connectig th e18ah battery to the p212s.
 
[SIZE=11pt]Answer from Elk:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]The ELK-P212S Power Supply battery leads have the ends to accommodate the F1-Faston 187 Battery Tabs. The ELK-12120 is the largest AH Battery in the ELK Product Line with the F1-Faston 187 Battery Tabs. The ELK-P212S is a trickle charger and should be able to recharge up to a 12 AH in a reasonable amount of time whereas larger AH for example the 18 will take a lot longer to recharge. It is for this reasons (F1 Faston 187 Tabs; and recharging time) we suggest not using a battery larger than 12 AH.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Concerning the output voltage readings it doesn’t make a difference if it’s in the stand alone mode or the M1 mode, the output voltage should be the same. The Output Voltage can drop to as low as 11.5VDC when the P212S Performs the Battery Test. BUT… normally it should be a stable voltage between 13.6 to 14.1VDC. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]The voltage out of the p212s should never be above 14.1VDC. Please let me know and I’ll create an RMA to have the customer send us the P212S for evaluation.[/SIZE]
 
Mike.

 

[Del91574]

Larger batteries increase the duty cycle and loading on the charger....it can damage them over time. Happens often with FACP's or units that have caps that are drying out.
 
The supply shouldn't be kicking out north of 14 volts...that would be an issue on both the output and the charger and would also start boiling off the battery. The only reason why Elk runs a higher voltage is when running on battery the supply takes about a volt kick and then the M1 hardware won't be happy at sub 12V powers. Lots of fun things happen then.

 

[mikefamig]

Update for thos interested.......the problem was a defective power supply. I installed a replacement and all is fine.
 
Mike.

 

[RAL]

Thanks for the update - we all learn from each others' experience.  I'm glad you've got it resolved.

 

[Del91574]

Hope you replaced the 18 Ah battery. You'd be amazed at what a damaged battery can do to a power supply. Not talking about a life span item here....You boiled the gel and also heated up the plates, most likely the next item up is the battery is going to start a nice swelling pattern and possibly split.
 
I'd stick towards what the battery rating as specified by the engineers here. I did a tour of duty for one of Honeywell's FACP companies and also 20 years in the field. There's a huge difference between the academic items and real world and life experiences.

 

[mikefamig]

Hope you replaced the 18 Ah battery. You'd be amazed at what a damaged battery can do to a power supply. Not talking about a life span item here....You boiled the gel and also heated up the plates, most likely the next item up is the battery is going to start a nice swelling pattern and possibly split.
 
I'd stick towards what the battery rating as specified by the engineers here. I did a tour of duty for one of Honeywell's FACP companies and also 20 years in the field. There's a huge difference between the academic items and real world and life experiences.

 
Thanks and yes I did get the correct battery. I can use the larger one on the bench for testing 12 volt stuff, I do some old car work.
 
Mike.