Fire/Smoke detector in cold garage

[mikefamig]

DEL
 
You went over my head on most of that last post. Understand that I know nothing about smoke alarm systems. I'm beginning to think that it would have been easier to buy two M1 panels and put one in each building instead of pulling cables between the two..
 
I think that I understand you to say that you prefer a wireless smoke detector, am I correct in this?
 
I also gathered that i will need to put surge suppression on the cables between buildings if I add a wireless TX down in the garage.
 
What is your opinion of the Elk 2way smoke? i ordered one for the house and when I get it I plan to test it's range to see if it will make the 125' trip to the garage.
 
Mike

 

[Del91574]

No need for 2 panels, but you should have enough copper installed in the field for the bus and preferably whatever else. If possible, run the loop to the panel and not an expander. Irregardless you'll need a surge at both ends for the FA.
 
I'd take hardwired any day of the week over RF. Copper is pretty cut and dry and always works, barring a wiring issue.
 
Elk's RF can't support a hardwired heat detector, so that would leave only a RF smoke detector, which is NOT supposed to be put in a garage similar space, so that leaves a single option, hardwired heats to the panel or expander.
 
Elk's RF smokes look OK on paper, but there's limitations on their functionality and how they're "driven" They do what they do and that's about it, not to mention there's a lot of applications they're not going to perform how they would or should be needed.

 

[mikefamig]

No need for 2 panels, but you should have enough copper installed in the field for the bus and preferably whatever else. If possible, run the loop to the panel and not an expander. Irregardless you'll need a surge at both ends for the FA.

 
I like the idea of running the loop back to the panel instead of using the xin but would it require special cable or could I use the existing cat5e?
 
 

I'd take hardwired any day of the week over RF. Copper is pretty cut and dry and always works, barring a wiring issue.
 
Elk's RF can't support a hardwired heat detector, so that would leave only a RF smoke detector, which is NOT supposed to be put in a garage similar space, so that leaves a single option, hardwired heats to the panel or expander.

 
Elk does make a  6022 3 zone wireless sensor that can have wired devices attached to it. Would this meet your approval for a heat detector?
 
 

Elk's RF smokes look OK on paper, but there's limitations on their functionality and how they're "driven" They do what they do and that's about it, not to mention there's a lot of applications they're not going to perform how they would or should be needed.

I ordered one Elk wireless smoke for the house and it will be within 20' or so of the tx. I am convinced that a heat detector is better for the garage.

 

[Del91574]

No on the transmitter. It supports NC devices only and it's not listed/designed for it. Bad idea all around. You have zero options for an Elk 2 way heat detector or wiring one to a transmitter.
 
Fire back to the panel would need to be 18 AWG FPL or equivalent substitute, but underground requires a wet location cable. Preferably heavier if any distance involved.

 

[mikefamig]

No on the transmitter. It supports NC devices only and it's not listed/designed for it. Bad idea all around. You have zero options for an Elk 2 way heat detector or wiring one to a transmitter.
 
Fire back to the panel would need to be 18 AWG FPL or equivalent substitute, but underground requires a wet location cable. Preferably heavier if any distance involved.

 
DEL I like that you don't take any shortcuts but this is not good news for me. I can see the benefit of directly wiring back to the panel but it won't be easy to pull another cable without removing the existing ones first.
 
 
Can I talk you into using the xin for a wired heat detector?
 
EDIT
If a heat detector is attached to the xin using 18awg FPL then does the xin also need to be attached to the M1 using FPL?

 

[Del91574]

The heat can go to the XIN, but you need to be aware of the caveats and backup power to exceed that on the panel. If you lose communications on the branch of the bus, it will be a fire alarm reported, not a trouble. It's the nature of the beast. I don't like it, but that's how the M1 acts.
 
Once you put a detector on the XIN, then you need to put suppression on both sides of the bus feed, which I believe you were doing anyhow.
 
The bus cabling should be a listed interchange, so it can be something like CM or CMR cable (common on Cat X). The table and hierarchy is out there for the legal interchange.

 

[mikefamig]

The heat can go to the XIN, but you need to be aware of the caveats and backup power to exceed that on the panel. If you lose communications on the branch of the bus, it will be a fire alarm reported, not a trouble. It's the nature of the beast. I don't like it, but that's how the M1 acts.
 
Once you put a detector on the XIN, then you need to put suppression on both sides of the bus feed, which I believe you were doing anyhow.
 
The bus cabling should be a listed interchange, so it can be something like CM or CMR cable (common on Cat X). The table and hierarchy is out there for the legal interchange.

I see the reasoning for running fpl cable all of the way back to the panel now. I think that in the spring time I will see if I can pull another cable through the conduit without removing the existing ones first. I left a poly rope in there for that purpose but it tends to get tangled up and hard to pull. I need to do some work there to add suppression anyways.
 
Mike.

 

[Del91574]

Might be worthwhile in pulling it all back and fixing it once and for all for the price of some cabling and effort. Would get your junctions out of the conduit bodies.

 

[mikefamig]

Might be worthwhile in pulling it all back and fixing it once and for all for the price of some cabling and effort. Would get your junctions out of the conduit bodies.

That's where my head is at now. I could probably pull it all out and get it back in in with one nice summer day.
 
My existing cables have about four feet of length in the garage that I can pull back towards the house that I hope will give me enough length to add a small box on each end to enclose surge protectors that will also serve as junctions. The system is running great so that will be a summer time job if I do it. Before yanking all out of the conduit I will try first to use the poly rope that is in the conduit to pull some FPL and another cat5 into it.
 
My fear is that I may not have enough length in the existing cables to reach a box at each end, It is not so easy to lengthen a cat5 cable by a foot or two as it is a power or speaker cable. This is the hard part of DIY. As a DIY'er I didn't have the foresight that would have prevented having to do things twice. But then I wouldn't have it any other way, at least when I'm done I completely understand what I have and I own it.
 
DEL how would you go about adding three feet of length to a cat5 if it was necessary to save replacing 200 feet of cable? I plan to use a western union type splice, solder and heat shrink.
 
Mike.

 

[Del91574]

I'd buy the cable and bite the bullet. Easier than dealing with the service woes of splices everywhere.
 
A 500' putup of UG C5 and similar other conductors that you'd need for your application are cheap. $100 for 1/2M of C5E will give you 2 pulls with enough slack to work with at both ends. About $125 for a 1/2M of 18/4. About $90 for 16/2 UG FPL.
 
That would give you 2 C5E's, 8 cond 18 AWG and 4 C 16 between buildings. Doubt you'd ever need more than that on an M1.

 

[mikefamig]

I'd buy the cable and bite the bullet. Easier than dealing with the service woes of splices everywhere.
 
A 500' putup of UG C5 and similar other conductors that you'd need for your application are cheap. $100 for 1/2M of C5E will give you 2 pulls with enough slack to work with at both ends. About $125 for a 1/2M of 18/4. About $90 for 16/2 UG FPL.
 
That would give you 2 C5E's, 8 cond 18 AWG and 4 C 16 between buildings. Doubt you'd ever need more than that on an M1

 
What is 1/2M? I'm guessing that it's about 500'?

 

[Del91574]

When buying putups 1M and 1/2M are 1K and 500'. Other times it comes down to if there's a less than full reel or cut, happens often with Belden.

 

[mikefamig]

I'd buy the cable and bite the bullet. Easier than dealing with the service woes of splices everywhere.
 
A 500' putup of UG C5 and similar other conductors that you'd need for your application are cheap. $100 for 1/2M of C5E will give you 2 pulls with enough slack to work with at both ends. About $125 for a 1/2M of 18/4. About $90 for 16/2 UG FPL.
 
That would give you 2 C5E's, 8 cond 18 AWG and 4 C 16 between buildings. Doubt you'd ever need more than that on an M1.

 
Thos must be wholesale prices because I pay a lot more around the net. I use Primus cable lately because they are nearby and have fair prices. Can you recommend a supplier?
 
Mike.

 

[Del91574]

I did a quick google for the prices and also hopped on my trade side. Prices are pretty much in line with what's out there.
 
EW is also a source, Capitol Light. Graybar. There's a bunch. Can't remember who Standard became, CREC maybe? They're over on Research Pky with EW and Graybar.

 

[mikefamig]

I did a quick google for the prices and also hopped on my trade side. Prices are pretty much in line with what's out there.
 
EW is also a source, Capitol Light. Graybar. There's a bunch. Can't remember who Standard became, CREC maybe? They're over on Research Pky with EW and Graybar.

Thanks, EW is near me, I'll check them out first. I have bought from them in the pst but forgot all about them