FloodCam go Boom?

[drozwood90]

Most and I mean by far and large MOST low light cameras aren't, they are marketing hype.


If you want to talk real low light drozwood90 can probably educate both of us, but he has been working on $10K-20K cameras. In contrast $120 isn't so bad, I call it cheap. To get the same level of performance from a color camera you are in for at least $350 if you get lucky with some decent chinese cam, $4-500 for it once it has been branded and brought into the US.

Collin, you are right. I've seen cameras that are speced to be "The 5 0", where it's .000005Lux... I'd rather just get a thermal imager. Then you NEVER need any lighting source, day OR night. If it's in any way shape or form different in temperature, you'll see it. However, you are talking 0 light, not really low light. Technically, my cameras are looking at a band of energy that is 7um in wavelength beyond the closest visible spectra (where you typically have a IR cut filter to see better in daylight, then at night you remove the cut filter to allow the day camera to see in the "low" light level (typically it's automatic).

The issue is cost. Most of my cameras are in the (at least my impression) 5K-10K+ range. Although new pricing was just assigned to everything...so who knows...
However, I'd wager you could drive car over them, drop them from an airplane, launch it out of a torpedo tube, etc. They are ruggedized. They NEVER EVER EVER have condensation appear in them (in any extreme). See, if the condisitons are just right, "rain" will form inside of your camera. They are good (in some cases IP67, others IP68, or better) in ANY weather (rain, sleet, snow, desert), humidity (0-95% operating), can see through dust storms, rain, blizzards), will operate from -25C (-13F) to +65C (149F).

What's really interesting is when you look out at the woods with our Dual Day/Thermal System. You typcially do not see anything except woods. However, I've been able to pickup squirrels/birds/deer, or even the heat that was left over from one of those animals as they were sitting in the woods. Then you use the Pan/Tilt controls and Zoom in on the area and can THEN pickup the animal.

Really neat stuff.

0.0003 Low Light Rating

That means you are in the Near IR range (0.8um to 1um)...I like to deal in the Longwave IR (thermal 8um-12um range)

 

[drozwood90]

Collin,

I had sent you a PM, did you get it?

--Dan

 

[jb_sgf]

I bought this low light camera rated at .0003 Lux.
http://www.supercircuits.com/index.asp?Pag...amp;ProdID=4185

I was hoping to cut power draw and get cleaner sharper images than I was getting with my color IR cameras. Sadly I no longer believe in low light at all now. Granted, this camera saw much better at night than any of my other cameras, but it was still pathetic. I consider low light unusable in my situation. Basically, I am starring at 8 cameras at night and with low light, mostly all I see is black, and for this I would be giving up my color in the daytime too.

For half the price of the cheapest solutions usually recommended here, I run 66+ feet IR CCD day/night color weatherproof cameras that light up the whole yard, clear to the street and in the day time, I have beautiful color. for under $60 each! Now at night, I noticed they seem a little grainier than the Swann $140 equavalents, but did I mention all these great features for under $60! and it is far brighter IR than the Swann.

Today, Geeks.com has these cameras on sale for $54.99!
http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=OU...&cpc=VIDbsc

Try one and see, I think the camera is a absolute steal at this price and I have cameras sitting in drawers at 3 times that price because they suck. The only reason I would recommend against this camera is when the camera is mounted very close to the subject, they are too bright and will wash out a face at night, but rare situation, use a low light at the entry way and let it bask in the light of the other cameras.

(I am not hating the higher end recommendations, just always like to throw out the "Best bang for the buck" options that us normal people can afford. Several co-workers are now running these cheap cameras, if I had recommended a $120 camera they would be using nothing at all. I just ordered two more of these and are considering them my offical camera as over half of my system is using them now.)

Vaughn

Do You have any pictures you could share from this camera?

 

[drozwood90]

if you click the links, there are pictures on the websites selling them.

--Dan

 

[jb_sgf]

if you click the links, there are pictures on the websites selling them.

--Dan

I dont' mean what the camera looks like. I was hoping you had some still images that were taken by the camera.

 

[CollinR]

However, I'd wager you could drive car over them, drop them from an airplane, launch it out of a torpedo tube, etc. They are ruggedized. They NEVER EVER EVER have condensation appear in them (in any extreme). See, if the condisitons are just right, "rain" will form inside of your camera. They are good (in some cases IP67, others IP68, or better) in ANY weather (rain, sleet, snow, desert), humidity (0-95% operating), can see through dust storms, rain, blizzards), will operate from -25C (-13F) to +65C (149F).

What's really interesting is when you look out at the woods with our Dual Day/Thermal System. You typcially do not see anything except woods. However, I've been able to pickup squirrels/birds/deer, or even the heat that was left over from one of those animals as they were sitting in the woods. Then you use the Pan/Tilt controls and Zoom in on the area and can THEN pickup the animal.

Really neat stuff.

I think the fraise "You get what you paid for." rings true here... However these are products that nobody here has any real use for, they are the only choice for what they do but for the most park it's detect someone is there and then conrtol sends some guys with guns after them.

0.0003 Low Light Rating

That means you are in the Near IR range (0.8um to 1um)...I like to deal in the Longwave IR (thermal 8um-12um range)

Oh no no no, they make color cameras with very similar specifications. As you know most color cameras have little to no use for high frequency light. The ones that do (fake day/night) wash the colors out because they use a filter in the middle, it can see some near IR but it filters some too.

They also don't have a standard color temperture or a standard light output for the test. So they will use odd light sources at odd levels to make the test work for them. Oh also that previsouly mentioned piece of paper one foot away... They don't have to use paper or flesh or anything specifically so if you want a really low number use something highly reflective. Yet again this has no real world corelation to performance, it's just crap that sells cameras.

Also I would wager they used a totally different lens, something in the F.95 range.


If you search the home security section for a thread about me catching some scub bags, the last clip I posted Meth Head Through Door. That is a wide dynamic range camera that back focuses the lense as the lighting color temperture changes. This way you need not calculate the index of refraction of your lens for both normal florscent lighing, night time LED rope lighting, and near IR lighting. It will notice the change and backfocus the lens to account, so you are always in proper focus no matter what the light source. Again too much $ for most residential users.

 

[drozwood90]

if you click the links, there are pictures on the websites selling them.

--Dan

I dont' mean what the camera looks like. I was hoping you had some still images that were taken by the camera.

Ah, I don't own any of those. The only pictures I can offer are those off my crappy X10 that I blew up, or whatever Critical Imaging has posted on thier website...Maybe someone else can post some stills of the others?

--Dan

 

[CollinR]

Collin,

I had sent you a PM, did you get it?

--Dan

Yup, I'll probably give you a ring a little later. I usually make my calls when I am on the road, again an industry standard.

 

[drozwood90]

0.0003 Low Light Rating

That means you are in the Near IR range (0.8um to 1um)...I like to deal in the Longwave IR (thermal 8um-12um range)

Oh no no no, they make color cameras with very similar specifications. As you know most color cameras have little to no use for high frequency light. The ones that do (fake day/night) wash the colors out because they use a filter in the middle, it can see some near IR but it filters some too.

Collin,

I'm agreeing with you. CCD cameras are speced in that range. It's called the Near IR range. It's as close as you can get to being out of the visual range of the eye and still be "technically" in there. Although it's way off of where the true thermal cameras see (there are short-wave, mid-wave and longwave). That's the mistake (most) people make, thermal is the same as Near IR. Eventually with a low enough lux, all you are doing is pushing the CCD closer and closer to true thermal energy. Hence why most CCDs have an IR cut filter. It is so sensative, that in daylight, with the IR cut filter NOT in, it becomes saturated immediatly. However, at night, you can take the filter out and it works in the near IR range.

The stuff I work with is only thermal. Such as the Flir brand that you spoke of. So, if you walk around the house, you can see your foot prints. It also worked great when I had an aparetment. I tried to tell the landlord that the fridge was running all the time. He obviously did not want to fix it as "it wasn't broke". Well, I brought a thermal camera home and showed him where all the heat was leaking out, as well as the typical power that was supposed to be exhibited byt eh fridge and a detailed analysis of how much power the fridge was actually using.

Oh well, over the top, but really, I was right wasn't I?!

--Dan

 

[ver0776]

Man, I would love to have one thermal camera just to go around the house and look for energy leaks... But at night with a thermal, despite its High costs, you can't actually identify someone, just know that they are there? I will put up some caps of my system at night with no lights on, I have 3 different camera brands/models, and may even hooked up the Sony Ex-View for comparision again.

I would love to see some shots that come off of these thermal systems, although I don't think I would ever use them for security, one would be nice to have depending on the images. I would love to have one on my gun turret and do motion tracking based on thermal images...

Vaughn

 

[drozwood90]

Man, I would love to have one thermal camera just to go around the house and look for energy leaks... But at night with a thermal, despite its High costs, you can't actually identify someone, just know that they are there? I will put up some caps of my system at night with no lights on, I have 3 different camera brands/models, and may even hooked up the Sony Ex-View for comparision again.

I would love to see some shots that come off of these thermal systems, although I don't think I would ever use them for security, one would be nice to have depending on the images. I would love to have one on my gun turret and do motion tracking based on thermal images...

Vaughn

http://www.criticalimaging.net/sr500.htm

it depends on where you are looking and how far away your subject is.

There are three video clips on that page from one Security model. If you look at the technical wrie-tup, you will see a pretty good description of how the military has defined being able to Detect, Recognize and Identify. Different models will do different things.

Such as:
http://www.criticalimaging.net/lofti.htm

That guy can detect out to 22km (look near the bottom of the page). That one has a bunch of clips that will demonstrate that thermal can be just as good as Day cameras...they just cost quite a bit more. For example, I design this stuff, but can't see spending that much on a thermal just for my house. It's cheaper just to add in more flood lights.

The difference is quite a bit of $$ as well. Thermal is worth it in high value situations (monitoring water reseviors, etc.). A house is not high value. It's also worth it if you need to implement a huge infrastructure (one thermal can take the place of quite a few day cameras/lights/wiring/etc.).

The thermals can see in the dark, bright light, blinding light, whatever without any illumination, as it sees heat. Cars look pretty neat, especially when driving (the air flowing on them makes the car look cool on the skin, until it stops moving, then it warms up right away). I have seen day cameras bloom (headlights on a car "tricks" the camera's iris), where the thermal still could see everything perfectly fine.

We are supposed to be putting quite a bit more video online soon.

--Dan