Frustrated with home automation software

[kwilcox]

I currently run X10, X10 Wireless, Insteon, and UPB & just use multiple adapters; each protocol seems to have its best interface it would seem.  I'll be putting in the leviton z-wave interface when my Yale door locks arrive.  (lol..Picta may have just talked me out of this however)...
 
I just use a USB hub to connect everything up.  In addition to HCA's database of known interfaces, I can essentially support any kind of interface using the "generic USB or generic Serial variants".  The latest version lets me connect up to 8.
 

 

[pete_c]

@kwilcox,
 
Tell us some more about HCA software and why you like it eh?
 
A quickie look at the website shows:

 

HCA was developed by Advanced Quonset Technology, Inc.
Advanced Quonset Technology Inc., a Washington based Corporation, has been in business since 1985 and specializes in application, development, computer consulting, and contract programming. We have undertaken tasks in language and system design, software tool design and implementation, user interface specification, and system level programming. We specialize in the Microsoft Windows operating systems.
Advanced Quonset Technology Inc. is pleased to make this software available.

 

[picta]

Well, I do currently use Leviton interface with z-wave locks, but it took a lot of effort to set up, and every now and then I need to do repairs to the z-wave network. My locks are in the garage, about 60' from controller, so having a serial interface was a must (I run serial wire to the garage). To reach the locks I also had to buy 2 beaming lamp modules. One of them seems to get "out of wack" every now and then, and I loose communication with the locks. Also parking the car in the garage seems to affect communication some times. On the controller side I had to implement a lot of error checking and recovery tricks to keep this weak link from messing my otherwise perfect HA setup

 

[kwilcox]

Pete, Advanced Quonset has been around for a while in the home automation industry.  In fact, they also wrote UPStart.  
 
HCA itself got its start quite a while ago too.  I've been running it forever.  In HCA's current incarnation, it can run as a standalone program or in a client server configuration.  I run client-server with the server running on a home-built atom based machine (draws about 15W).  Clients can be windows, iPhone, or Android based.  The system can really go in what ever direction you want depending on your needs.  For the average person, there's a room oriented paradigm makes it pretty easy to set up.  Rooms have timer properties and devices in that room can be timer triggers.  The concept of "room on"  and "room off" is fundamental to this.  Device properties can be set to trigger a room on condition and other devices can be set to be controlled by that.  Thus, I can tap a switch which controls room on and the lights in it (slaved to the room) are also turned on.  The timer automatically turns the room off again.  If I have a motion sensor, I can set this to reset the timer when its triggered so the lights stay on as long as someone's in the room.
 
Or, if you want more control, you can use the visual programmer and create macros.  My laundry room example above does just this.  Originally, I was using room control logic in the laundry room but I wanted more intelligence after I added UPB switches to the stairway and downstairs hallway lights.  So I moved room control over to a custom macro that sets an "occupied" flag then checks the occupancy of two other rooms before extinguishing hallway lighting.  The other two rooms off that hallway have the same checks, so the hallway lights turn off when the timer for the last occupied room expires.
 
One of HCA's best capabilities is its ability to work as a protocol bridge.  I can add UPB/Insteon lights to the same light group and control them together for example.  HCA controls the timing on both interfaces so all lights come on simultaneously.  I can then use a UPB switch to control non-UPB devices by simply setting a macro that controls the light group to trigger when HCA detects the UPB link command from the light switch.  Typically, I use this feature mostly with X10 wireless keypads.
 
The built in weather functionality is pretty cool too as is the energy monitoring feature.  I use weather trending data to allow HCA to control the state of my mini-split using an insteon 2411T (and a home built IR amplifier).  It knows whether to put in in heat or A/C mode and also to disable it if the outside temp is approaching its minimum running temp.  I use the heck out of the scheduler too.  Macros can be scheduled by time of day or use dusk/dawn triggers.  For example, one of my schedules runs 30 minutes before dusk.  You can also set a random variant to this which is useful if you are programming "away from home" lighting.
 
All in all, HCA can be very simple/high level for people who aren't technically astute, or for geeks like me, its full API/control protocol programming features make it literally able to work with any HA gear out there that has a published API.

 

[NeverDie]

I personally use hardware controllers with hard-wired connections for mostly everything: lights, security, shades, irrigation, ev sensors etc., and a software controller to tie all of these together 

What kind of hard-wired connections are you referring to?  i.e. is it a custom DIY, or are you using an off-the-shelf solution?  A "hard-wired connection" does seem like the only way to get guaranteed low-latency and high reliability without a lot of headaches.  If I had it to do over, I would probably aim for that.

 

[Waynedb]

The 3d party integration is via cloud, so the most likely "software" will end up being an app.

 
That would suck, I know Control 4 can Integrate with it.

 

[picta]

What kind of hard-wired connections are you referring to?  i.e. is it a custom DIY, or are you using an off-the-shelf solution?  A "hard-wired connection" does seem like the only way to get guaranteed low-latency and high reliability without a lot of headaches.  If I had it to do over, I would probably aim for that.

 
I have moved most functions to semi-pro solutions that I installed myself in my current home after struggling with consumer grade products. 95% hard-wired, except for a few locks and random RF stuff. All sensors are wired to HAI panel, lighting control via Centralite Elegance, shades are somfy RS485, all TVs and AV equipment have serial connections, audio is Hi-Fi2, irrigation is serial Rain8, all valves and motors are wired to the controllers. I have over 1000 addressable devices (nuts, isn't it?)  and everything just works.

 

[pete_c]

I am noticing a "stickeyness to whatever software / hardware" personally works or made to work which makes sense over a period of time.
 
Over time the investments in software / hardware build up some plus the time spent on learning. 
 
I do still get the question about the spend of an automation switch versus a simple $3 electrical lamp switch and what is the benefit of one over another.
 
Well too what is the justification to automating a light switch with a computer or software or firmware?  Personally its fun here.  There really isn't a payback as much as I can tell (but I recall when I was young being reminded to shut of a light when exiting a room and that has always been ingrained into my head).  I did always find it nice to program lighting in a home nobody was at to provide a lived in look.
 
I spent time installing many automation switches.  I got faster but it was still time consuming.  Maybe its an age thing but really here don't want to revisit that piece.
 
Running cables is another thing and is time consuming.
 
Software / hardware is learned and mostly I see it works or made to work accordingly and over a period of time.
 
Well then a newbie automation person will hear from an oldie automation person that its easy; well whatever it is.
 
Truely it is easy after using whatever making it work just right after a few years.
 
Then also I see here folks do switch or try different software and even hardware type stuff over a period of time.  Hardware though not as much as software. 
 
This continues to be a great discussion and is a very good read.

 

[Dean Roddey]

Any switch between non-trivial software products tends to be frustrating to some degree or another. If nothing else there's the 'terminology gap' issue, since all products tend to develop their own 'product speak'. It's not out of sheer perversity or anything. The problem is that you don't want to use common names for things, because it can become very difficult to distinguish when talking/writing between the general concept and the actual implementation of that concept in the product. So things get 'pet names' basically, that specifically refer to that concept as implemented.
 
And of course there's a hundred different ways to write software to skin a cat, so there are lots of different approaches that can be taken, and that leads to different 'flows' through the product to achieve this or that, and that leads to frustration. Something that (as you say after lots of use) seems an obvious way to do X, is really just uh way to do X, and someone going in the other direction will feel the same really.
 
Sometimes there are obviously places in such large products where the flow could be smoother or way to do something more obvious. Vendors are ultimately caught between wanting to do those things and doing the things that the never ending changes in the automation landscape require them to do, many of which contribute to the issues because things need to be changed to accommodate the new whateverness, but there's just not enough time to go back every time it happens and completely revamp all of the user interfaces that might be affected. And the more specific you attempt to make your interfaces to the way you do it now, the more likely it'll get adversely affected by changes forced on you.
 
And of course there's also the problem that, if some change requires any sort of fundamental shift in the product's user interface or flow of interaction, a huge chunk of your documentation becomes invalid and that also has to be re-done, and that can be hugely time consuming to go back and get updated such that it doesn't become an incoherent mess.

 

[NeverDie]

Is there any home automation software out there that "just works"?  I've poured a lot of time recently into HS3, and although the concept is an improvement over HS2, I'm finding it to be very brittle.  Anyhow, I've found  HS3 to be a rabbithole: I'm spending far more time on home automation than the home automation is saving me, and I see no end in sight to that if I continue with either HS2 or HS3. Working with a black box product with very little support from the maker isn't what I wanted.  I think it would be worth the headache of switching to another product if there is a really solid one out there that can handle z-wave in a fast and highly robust way.  Is there?

 

[Dean Roddey]

A lot of this thread was a discussion of just that, so a read through this thread should give you some ideas. Assuming from your post that you mean 'just works right once set up', as apposed to 'just magically controls all my stuff when I plug it in', then that's a reasonable requirement and doable.

 

[Deane Johnson]

Never Die, I just went through what you're describing and It prompted me in the early stages to start this thread.  I tried HS3 and never could get my arms around it.  Not to put it down in any way, I just could not gain satisfaction.
 
I then tried CQC out of desperation, as I had held back on trying it due to the misconception is had a tough learning curve.  I was coming from Elve which I felt was reasonably easy to learn, and was pleasantly surprised to discover CQC was even easier for me.  I'm not a programmer.  I had planned on a two month period to switch my system over from Elve to CQC and it ended taking two weeks instead of two months, working in the time I had to devote to it.
 
I too use Z-Wave and one of the big surprises I was not expecting was the speed in which CQC executes commands.  For my Home Theater startup lists, I execute a number of Z-Wave controlled functions, some IR via Global Cache, and some motorized shades via relays.  When I tap the button on my iPad, with CQC the execution is almost instantaneous which always scares me with it's speed.  Elve could take 5 to 8 seconds to execute the same list.  My failure rate on execution of an event list has been near zero with CQC.
 
Another thing that changed dramatically from anything else I tried is the response speed of simple commands.  I have my iPad set up with controls for my various HT components such as DVD player, projector, etc.  With Elve it was frustrating to experience the momentary pause between taping the button on the iPad and having the menu on the screen follow.  With CQC, the response is almost instant just as if you were using the original IR remote.
 
My post is not intended to demean any product, but rather to relate my experience with finding a piece of software that served my purpose much better than I was expecting.  I'm not a programmer, my brain is 80 years old, and I needed something that required little thinking and tinkering.  I am still surprised that it was CQC that ended up being the answer to all of my needs.
 
If starting this thread accomplished nothing else, it ended up getting me to where I wanted to be and ending all of my frustration.

 

[Frunple]

Is there any home automation software out there that "just works"?  I've poured a lot of time recently into HS3, and although the concept is an improvement over HS2, I'm finding it to be very brittle.  Anyhow, I've found  HS3 to be a rabbithole: I'm spending far more time on home automation than the home automation is saving me, and I see no end in sight to that if I continue with either HS2 or HS3. Working with a black box product with very little support from the maker isn't what I wanted.  I think it would be worth the headache of switching to another product if there is a really solid one out there that can handle z-wave in a fast and highly robust way.  Is there?

Elve "just works" perfectly.

 

[ChrisCicc]

Is there any home automation software out there that "just works"?  I've poured a lot of time recently into HS3, and although the concept is an improvement over HS2, I'm finding it to be very brittle.  Anyhow, I've found  HS3 to be a rabbithole: I'm spending far more time on home automation than the home automation is saving me, and I see no end in sight to that if I continue with either HS2 or HS3. Working with a black box product with very little support from the maker isn't what I wanted.  I think it would be worth the headache of switching to another product if there is a really solid one out there that can handle z-wave in a fast and highly robust way.  Is there?

 
Shameless plug, have you looked at CastleOS? 
 
As a side note, I'm not kidding when I say frustration years ago with HomeSeer is what finally drove me to write my own software. So much potential floundered, oh well all the better for us! 

 

[NeverDie]

I too use Z-Wave and one of the big surprises I was not expecting was the speed in which CQC executes commands.  For my Home Theater startup lists, I execute a number of Z-Wave controlled functions, some IR via Global Cache, and some motorized shades via relays.  When I tap the button on my iPad, with CQC the execution is almost instantaneous which always scares me with it's speed.  Elve could take 5 to 8 seconds to execute the same list.  My failure rate on execution of an event list has been near zero with CQC.
 
Another thing that changed dramatically from anything else I tried is the response speed of simple commands.  I have my iPad set up with controls for my various HT components such as DVD player, projector, etc.  With Elve it was frustrating to experience the momentary pause between taping the button on the iPad and having the menu on the screen follow.  With CQC, the response is almost instant just as if you were using the original IR remote.

 
Speed, and what kind of hardware it takes to get it, really is important because high latency implies low WAF.  What sort of hardware is required for CQC to be nearly instantaneous?  In looking at reviews of home automation software, speed is rarely mentioned.  
 
Are HCA and CastleOS nearly instantaneous too?  I started with Vera almost two years ago, but I had to abandon it fairly quickly because I found it pathetically slow with anything but a small numer of z-wave nodes.  I'm currently running about 60 nodes, but I'll be closer to 80+ nodes when I'm finished.  I wouldn't call HomeSeer fast in absolute terms, but it is fast in comparison to Vera if it's running on a fast PC.  Ideally I would just try all the home automation software packages, but there are just too many, and it would take too much time to vet them all, so I need a good short list to work from.  I agree that this thread probably has some good leads, especially for software I hadn't heard of before.
 
Aside from being speedier than Vera, the thing that originally sold me on HomeSeer software is that it can get better z-wave robustness by running multiple z-trollers to get better z-wave coverage and with fewer hops (and fewer hops also helps reduce perceived lag time).  Can CQC do that?  HCA?  CastleOS?  Elve?  Anything else?  Even Vera had something similar, which worked using UDP over ethernet.  Without some kind of multiple, distributed z-wave interfaces, I'm convinced that z-wave just doesn't have the required reliability that I need.  I've tried it both ways, and so I'm pretty confident of that.