Garage Motion - Zone type of Burglar Interior Follower?

[dw886]

Hi-

Here's a setup question that I'm not 100% clear on. I have a motion detector in my garage. I also have door sensors on my overhead garage doors, and a door sensor on the walk-through door that goes from the garage into the house.

Overhead garage door sensors are set to Burglar Entry/Exit 2 with a delay of 180 (should be enough time for my wife to park her car, get out, and grab a bag of groceries).

The walk-through door from the garage to the house is set to Burglar Entry/Exit 2 which should also have a delay of 180 seconds according to how I have it setup.

Question: For the motion sensor that's in the garage, it will be tripped on entry and exit after the system is armed. Should I set the motion to "Burglar Interior Follower" or to "Burglar Entry/Exit 2"?

If I set it to follower, is that going to cause an issue when arming the panel, going through the garage walk-through door, getting into the car, and then opening the garage door? Does follower give you as much time as the 180 seconds that I have set for Burglar Entry/Exit 2?

Thanks!

 

[Del91574]

What panel is this?

There's going to be inherent difficulties and compromises with OHD contacts and PIR's installed in a garage and arming a system in a "traditional" manner and the panel itself may or may not be able to be programmed to make life easier.

 

[dw886]

It's an Elk M1G. Is there any drawbacks to putting it to burglar entry/exit 2 like I'm using for the overhead doors and the garage entry doors?

Thanks!

 

[Del91574]

It'll work, however you're also increasing the delay time that an actual alarm event would report to the panel and amount of time someone would be able to have free reign inside. 3 minutes is a VERY long time, even with OHD's and openers.

Part of the reason why I don't like using motions in garages.

You could, however, set up those detectors as their own area and write some rules to arm/disarm that area based on the armed status of the house, OHD contacts, etc.

Also, if you have fobs, it might make some of the options and programming easier.

 

[drvnbysound]

Heh, I've got a motion in my garage as well... so very interested in hearing various setup solutions for this. I currently have mine on a entry/exit 2, with a 90 second timer. I currently have nothing connected to the garage door itself, or I'd probably have it setup as an Interior follower.

Also curious, along the subject... I know there are people who also control their garage door opener via Elk (e.g. upon arm stay, check to see if the garage door is closed, if not, close it). The connection between the Elk and the opener... Is that generally just wired in parallel with the same wiring that goes to the wall mounted opener? I've yet to check voltage on these wires (to determine how to connect this to the Elk), but have tested continuity between the wires, and found that mine just short to close the door.

 

[dw886]

If it is setup as Interior Follower, how much of a delay do you get? I have sensors on every way into the garage, and have them all setup as Entry/Exit 2. Would it get the delay for Entry/Exit 1 or Entry/Exit 2?

 

[wuench]

It will follow either entry1 or entry2 delay, whichever is triggered.

And I wired my output from the Elk in parallel with the GDO button wires.

 

[Del91574]

Guess I'm old fashioned by simply contacting the perimeter of the garage for the most of the installs I do. In the case of where I have put in a motion, I typically do delay it rather than follower because of the enviromental concerns, even with a good quality unit.

In the case of an M1 specifically, you could toss a rule and a separate area containing that detector only, then use some logic at that point.

In the case of a GDO, usually if you have a "dumb" pushbutton you can get away with a momentary short, otherwise you need to investigate what the specific controller/button has on it and how it works to come up with a solution that'll work with a momentary short.

 

[dw886]

So if I put the PIR into a separate area, and then have a rule that arms that area after X time for each arming type, that would take care of exit delay.

What about entry delay? If I set it up as Interior Follower and have it a part of Area 2, is it going to follow sensors that are from Area 1 (like the garage walk-in doors, or the overhead doors, etc.)?

 

[wuench]

I recommend you just set it up as Burglar Interior Follower on a single area and try it out and see how you and the wife like it before you go implementing complex rules, multiple areas, etc. There are more complex ways to do what you want, but based on your requirements the simplest setup may be all you need.

 

[drvnbysound]

My GDO utilizes a simple momentary short to open/close the door. Regarding this, I have a couple of questions....

Is there any reason why I shouldn't wire the GDO to OUT3?

Regardless of the chosen output, there obviously has to be some rule(s) written to handle the toggle portion of the 'momentary' switch. Obviously GDOs differ, but can anyone comment on the length of time needed for this to occur? What I'm really asking is, does the Elk execute the rules faster than the GDO would recognize the short (e.g. milliseconds) if I rule were written to turn on, then off, the output? If so, I assume a time delay is generally written in to accommodate the 'momentary' press...

 

[tmbrown97]

The shortest interval you can set is 1 second. I also set a backup rule that says "whenever output xx turns on, turn off output xx" - basically a safety so that if you turn on the output in any manner, it turns right back off... even a fraction of a second is sufficient.

 

[drvnbysound]

The shortest interval you can set is 1 second. I also set a backup rule that says "whenever output xx turns on, turn off output xx" - basically a safety so that if you turn on the output in any manner, it turns right back off... even a fraction of a second is sufficient.

Thanks for the response. Yeah, I was planning something along the lines of what you wrote, "whenever output xx turns on, turn off output xx". I wasn't sure if that was executed RIGHT after it was turned on, if the GDO would recognize the short. I suppose there is but one way to find out

 

[drvnbysound]

The shortest interval you can set is 1 second. I also set a backup rule that says "whenever output xx turns on, turn off output xx" - basically a safety so that if you turn on the output in any manner, it turns right back off... even a fraction of a second is sufficient.

So I took some time today and ran the wiring to do this... I have OUT3 (the COM and N/O terminals) wired in parallel to the GDO. Regarding rules, I setup a counter, which is set to 1 via Function key or Task. When the counter=1, OUT3 is turned on for 1 second. This seems to work fine, but I have a bit of concern about what could possibly happen if that OUT were ever to get stuck ON for some reason (unknown). That said, I've tried various methods (i.e. as suggested above) to ensure that OUT3 is turned back off. However, when it's setup this way (e.g. "whenever output xx turns on, turn off output xx"), OUT3 never gets turned on... I assume the ELK is running through the rules faster than the physical switching can actually occur, which is likely why it's never turned on.

I also tried Whenever Every 2 seconds, and OUT3 is on, turn it off.... but based on the occurrence of OUT3 being turned ON, it simply altered the amount of time that OUT3 was being left on. I also assume that if I'm setting this to check every 2 seconds, that it's technically feasible that the entry could occur "milliseconds" before this rule is checked, and it could potentially turn OUT3 OFF, before it's physically turned on (as I believe the case to be above). Increasing the interval should really make no difference, except reduce the probability that the time OUT3 is ON is shortened.

Suggestions? Or am I trying to split hairs, and is this something that I should not really be worried about, as long as I leave OUT3 set for only 1 second?

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

If you are that paranoid about the relay being stuck on due to a rule, maybe consider getting an Elk-960 which to me would seem more reliable in terms of guaranteeing it would turn off properly.