HA for New Construction

[esabet]

Hi;

I am about to build a new house and would love to get some decent home automation integrated. I have done some research using Google but I must say that I got lost very quickly. There are so many manufacturers and so many different systems.

So I am assuming that some systems are best suite for retrofit projects while others are best suited for construction and please correct me if I am wrong. So my question ultimately is What HA system would you recommend for a New Construction project?

 

[Slates]

You will likely need to go a bit further with your question.. like answering questions such as:

What do you want home automation to do for you? Just control of lights? Thermostats? Cameras? Security? Irrigation?

It seems its best to list your wants, then work from there.

 

[fcwilt]

Elan g!

http://www.elanhomesystems.com/g.asp

 

[esabet]

You will likely need to go a bit further with your question.. like answering questions such as:

What do you want home automation to do for you? Just control of lights? Thermostats? Cameras? Security? Irrigation?

It seems its best to list your wants, then work from there.

Good point. Sorry I should have done that in my original post. Here is what I like to accomplish:

• Security System,
• Video Surveillance,
• Access Control,
• Lighting Control,
• HVAC Control,
• Whole House Audio/Media Control,
• Home Theater Control,
• Intercom System

Obviously this is a wish list and I would adjust it as necessary based on cost. We all want everything but.....

When I did my initial research I came across HAI (Home Automation Inc.) and it seemed that it offers all of the above. But after some further research I felt that HAI is more suited for retrofit projects!!!???

 

[esabet]

Elan g!

Elan Home Systems

Thank you Frederick.

So that I understand better in my search, can you tell me briefly what makes one system more suitable for New Construction than Retrofit and vice versa?

 

[AnthonyZ]

When I did my initial research I came across HAI (Home Automation Inc.) and it seemed that it offers all of the above. But after some further research I felt that HAI is more suited for retrofit projects!!!???

What makes you say that?

Retrofit or new construction stuff should be way down on the list of reasons to choose one overall controller over another. Virtually all systems will work in either scenario. Once again, you need to clarify what you hope to get out of it. Then, determine budget. Reconcile the two and you're on your way. Another important question is DIY or pro install?

 

[fresno51]

Hi;

I am about to build a new house and would love to get some decent home automation integrated. I have done some research using Google but I must say that I got lost very quickly. There are so many manufacturers and so many different systems.

I think you have to consider plenty of cat5e ethernet cables to as many locations as you can. This is the starting point. The rest is not so important because technology changes. cat5e is designed for differential signals like rs485, ethernet and many more. You need control signals. Of course in star topology.

 

[esabet]

What makes you say that?

Retrofit or new construction stuff should be way down on the list of reasons to choose one overall controller over another. Virtually all systems will work in either scenario. Once again, you need to clarify what you hope to get out of it. Then, determine budget. Reconcile the two and you're on your way. Another important question is DIY or pro install?

Hi Anthony;

Well that is why I am here, I need someone that has much more knowledge to correct me where I am wrong, so, Thank You!!.

As you can see I am VERY new to HA. I always dreamed about having a house with HA and now that I am building a new house I like to have it implemented!

In my previous post I did list what it is I would like accomplish but here it is again but with some detail:


•Security System - Intruder Alert, Fire/Smoke ALert, all with remote access.

•Video Surveillance - To be able to monitor the front gate, front door, rear yard and maybe one additional room in the house.

•Access Control - To be able to open gate, front door and maybe limit access to master bedroom!!

•Lighting Control - Control lighting throughout the house; to be able to turn lights on/off from central location and individual locations.

•HVAC Control - The ability to control the HVAC settings remotely as well as locally and from a central location.

•Whole House Audio/Media Control - To be able to have Hi-Fi audio in all "major" rooms (living room, den, kitchen, dining room, master bedroom, foyer) and the ability to control the sources independently.

•Home Theater Control - Self explanatory, I hope.

•Intercom System - To be able to page or even converse with another room, at the gate, front door.


I hope the above helps.

As for Pro Install or DIY, I am a builder myself but have limited man power - typically I sub out all the phases of the construction. At the same time I am also very "technology friendly" and I don't mind at all getting my own hands on it but I would not want to sacrifice system quality for the sake of doing so. So if I must have the "right" system installed by a pro, so be it!! I am a great believer that experience goes a long way!!

That said, what would be your recommendation?

P.S. Since I am a builder this will actually be the perfect opportunity for me to experiment and learn about HA and be able to offer my customers a service that is growing in popularity day by day!! You could say this will be "the model" house!

 

[fcwilt]

Thank you Frederick.

So that I understand better in my search, can you tell me briefly what makes one system more suitable for New Construction than Retrofit and vice versa?

I don't know that I would categorize any HA system, as a whole, as being better for new or retrofit.

There are certain technologies, which become part of the HA system, that lend themselves to retrofit. For example, lighting control, - there are hardwired systems where you have low voltage switches in the wall sending commands to the high voltage dimmers placed in a central location - clearly not easy to retrofit - on the other hand you have wireless or PLC (power line control) types which are easy to retrofit since you are replacing existing switches with new ones.

Since you are building a new house new vs retrofit is a non-issue.

You still need to study each part of the HA system and decide which technology you wish to use - it can be confusing for sure - so you will probably be asking lots of questions here - that's good.

My home was pre-wired for some things (computers, a/v gear) but not with HA in mind. So when I decided to retrofit a system I had to make some compromises.

To install a security system (I chose ELK) I had to go with a mostly wireless system since I wasn't prepared to open the walls to install the window and door sensors. The system works well but I have to change batteries every few years and that is a bit of a pain.

For lighting I went with UPB since it had a good track record and was easy to retrofit.

For irrigation control, A/V gear control, security cameras, HVAC control I was able to use a combination of existing wiring, new wiring and wireless to obtain a working system.

My system works well.

When I went to build a home for my daughter I had a much better idea of what I would need. I ran a lot more cable, pre-wired the window/door sensors, etc - so when the time comes to install the full blown HA system it will be rather easy.

Of course you can go with one of the "all-in-one" systems like Crestron, AMX, etc and they can provide all of the hardware and do the pre-wire - be prepared - it will be very expensive.

One thing you may want to consider is to provide a degree of "future-proofing" by running (along with any wiring you can determine at the outset) unused conduit or "smurf tube" to a variety of locations - thus making running additional wiring, that you may find you need, much simpler.

 

[esabet]

I don't know that I would categorize any HA system, as a whole, as being better for new or retrofit.

There are certain technologies, which become part of the HA system, that lend themselves to retrofit. For example, lighting control, - there are hardwired systems where you have low voltage switches in the wall sending commands to the high voltage dimmers placed in a central location - clearly not easy to retrofit - on the other hand you have wireless or PLC (power line control) types which are easy to retrofit since you are replacing existing switches with new ones.

Since you are building a new house new vs retrofit is a non-issue.

You still need to study each part of the HA system and decide which technology you wish to use - it can be confusing for sure - so you will probably be asking lots of questions here - that's good.

My home was pre-wired for some things (computers, a/v gear) but not with HA in mind. So when I decided to retrofit a system I had to make some compromises.

To install a security system (I chose ELK) I had to go with a mostly wireless system since I wasn't prepared to open the walls to install the window and door sensors. The system works well but I have to change batteries every few years and that is a bit of a pain.

For lighting I went with UPB since it had a good track record and was easy to retrofit.

For irrigation control, A/V gear control, security cameras, HVAC control I was able to use a combination of existing wiring, new wiring and wireless to obtain a working system.

My system works well.

When I went to build a home for my daughter I had a much better idea of what I would need. I ran a lot more cable, pre-wired the window/door sensors, etc - so when the time comes to install the full blown HA system it will be rather easy.

Of course you can go with one of the "all-in-one" systems like Crestron, AMX, etc and they can provide all of the hardware and do the pre-wire - be prepared - it will be very expensive.

One thing you may want to consider is to provide a degree of "future-proofing" by running (along with any wiring you can determine at the outset) unused conduit or "smurf tube" to a variety of locations - thus making running additional wiring, that you may find you need, much simpler.

Thank you for the well detailed explanation.

Since I have started my research on the subject, the only system that I could fully understand is HAI (Home Automation, Inc.) and that is because they have nice Tutorial Videos on their site that explains very nicely every component! But then when I went to other sites like Crestron and Lutron, I got lost!!! And that is why I decided to search for a forum that could help me through the process - and here I am!!!

What made me think that one system is for retro and the other for new is because of my lack of knowledge on the entire field of HA. I thought if they make a switch to replace another switch (i.e. UPB systems or x10) with no separate wiring needed, then its intention is solely for a retrofit and, therefore, when it comes to a new construction there must be “better” alternative which could be less expensive. i.e. UPB switches are average of $60/piece!!

But if I understand it now that is not the case. UPB technology, for example, is used both in new and retrofit projects!! (I hope I am getting it right!)

Now as for the “components”, when talking about the different components, are we separating, for example, the main Home Control System from the Lighting Controller, the Security System Controller, the Audio Controller and etc.. And the main unit is where all the different components/controllers "merge" and get manipulated "centrally"!!! Am I right?

In your post you also touched upon "all-in-one" systems and that they are the "more expensive" alternatives. So, for example, would you say HAI is an example of "all-in-one" system?

And, so, if the “all-in-one” units are the more expensive alternatives (which also begs for the question what is the “less expensive option”), then are you recommending buying the different components from different sources/manufactures? For example using HAI’s Home Control System while buying Lutron Lighting Control system and etc.!!

Thank you in advance for all your help.

 

[fcwilt]

Thank you for the well detailed explanation.

As I mentioned it can be confusing.

In my opinion the HAI OmniProII and the ELK M1G are primarily security systems with HA capabilities. I have used both as the security part of a HomeLogic (now owned by Elan) HA system but they can be the heart of a HA system.

Do some research on Crestron, AMX, Elan, Control 4 as well as the HAI OmniProII and the ELK M1G. You will see, for example, that Crestron offers a huge array of products covering all aspects of a HA system. Elan G! on the other hand focuses on being the heart of a HA system and using other brands of hardware to complete the system.

My HomeLogic (now Elan) system uses an ELK M1G as the security part, Simply Automated and HAI UPB components for the lighting control part, a Hunter ICC unit as the controller for irrigation and so on.

I recommend Elan G! because I believe it is the best mid-range system available.

One important thing to know is that some of these systems are ONLY available through a dealer while others are available to the DIYer.

So go forth and research the various vendors of HA systems and equipment and get an basic understanding of who offers what - Google is your friend.

 

[esabet]

As I mentioned it can be confusing.

...........

Thanks again.

As I am continuing my research it seems there are both Non-hardwired (i.e. X-10, UPB, etc.) and Hardwired (Centralite, OnQ, etc.) options available. I guess in a retro the option is clear but with a new construction it needs some consideration. So which would you recommend?

 

[tmbrown97]

As I'm reading the posts, I was thinking of several responses - which Frederick covered very well above already. Many of these systems can work both wired or wireless. Another example is thermostat - in new construction, you should run an extra Cat5 to the thermostat for direct control; but if you don't have it, you can get z-wave thermostats that talk to your system wirelessly; or RCS systems which repurpose the wires and keep the controller up in the attic where it's likely easier to wire.

I see your logic in the "which is better" thinking - I'm know wired security is way better than wireless; but things like lighting, that may not be the case - the retrofit options might be the best (based on a set of criteria only you can evaluate).

Here's another frame of mind to consider - the market will cater to and evolve fastest around the largest potential market - and that's generally the retrofit market. The number of new construction homes where someone may want automation is much smaller than the number of homes that someone is already living in - is already built, where someone wants to eventually automate. Therefore it seems like technologies like retrofit lighting are moving pretty quick - and the best part, you can take them out at any point when it comes to resale because automation does scare some potential buyers.

You should look at what you want to use for a central controller; and you should read the Wiring your House guides on this site. Your controller can be either a hardware controller (HAI, Elk, Elan, Control4) or software on a PC. Then you decide on lighting - most automation protocols/systems support most lighting protocols available. Thermostats - similar case; Definitely wire for security, and over wire for connectivity via Cat6 (it can be used for almost anything). Just keep going down the list from there... Also when evaluating controller options, look at what systems they'll integrate with - and you should be able to start putting together a package in your head.


And by the way - Welcome! Google brought you here - you should be able to find everything you need now that you're here... there's a great wealth of information here, and direct access to Elk, HAI and others who write software, support the systems, sell them, install them, etc.

 

[fcwilt]

Thanks again.

As I am continuing my research it seems there are both Non-hardwired (i.e. X-10, UPB, etc.) and Hardwired (Centralite, OnQ, etc.) options available. I guess in a retro the option is clear but with a new construction it needs some consideration. So which would you recommend?

I think that a hardwired system is elegant BUT when I built a new home for my daughter I followed my electricians advice to NOT use a hardwired system - his reasoning is that if you use a system that has centralized dimmers with low voltage switches in the wall you are forever stuck with that type of system. On the other hand if you go with a system that puts the HA supported dimmers in the same wall locations as you would "normal" switches - a future owner can always put "normal" switches back in if desired. He had worked on a home which had an older centralized dimmer system which was defunct so he had run into this issue before. Just his 2 cents, of course.

Since I had good luck retro-fitting UPB devices to my own home I was OK with using them again in the new home - and they worked fine.

I still like the idea of centralized dimmers - someday maybe.

 

[esabet]

..........

And by the way - Welcome! Google brought you here - you should be able to find everything you need now that you're here... there's a great wealth of information here, and direct access to Elk, HAI and others who write software, support the systems, sell them, install them, etc.

Thank you and I must say I am learning more and more because of this board!!! So thanks to everyone.

As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, I am a home builder. As such I know the value of a hardwired "system" vs a wireless system. For instance, in my case I am talking about Home Security Systems or HVAC Thermostat. I will NEVER build a new home that is NOT hardwired!! The wireless systems are good but "not good enough", if you know what I mean. I guess it is that experience that initially lead me to believe, for example, a UPB setup is more of a retrofit option. But now I see that is not quite the same when it comes to "Lighting Control". But the following aspects of the system I do intent to hardwire (and please correct me if you do not agree):

• Security System
• HVAC Control
• Home Audio System
• Irrigation System

And I am sure as I do more research there maybe other aspects that I see I need to hardwire.

From what I am learning here, my VERY first step should be to decide on the Central Home Controller and then build on top of that.

And to be more clear, from what I understand now, and please correct me if I am wrong, just because the central controller module is manufactured by XYZ company, other moduels such as the light control, the audio control module and etc. do not necessarily have to be by the same XYZ company"?

I think that a hardwired system is elegant BUT ....... if you use a system that has centralized dimmers with low voltage switches in the wall you are forever stuck with that type of system.

.......

I still like the idea of centralized dimmers - someday maybe.

Yes Fredrick, I can see now!!! Actually the first time I thought about HA system and before I had started my research on the subject, I told myself "it would be nice to build a system that has a "backup"!!! That is to say, in case the main controller goes down you can still operate the separate components, being the lighting, HVAC control, Security System and etc., independently and individually.

That said, together with what you touched upon above, yes I can see why I would want to run my wiring as usual and then simply replace the switches with the HA switches, i.e. UPB switch/dimmer.

But, as a home builder, I have had many occasions where, for exmaple, in the foyer alone, I have eight or ten different switches. So when I thought about an HA system, in cases like that I had envisioned to get rid of such cluster which is VERY unsightly!!! Is that possible to have without the "hardwired" option? I am yet to find a UPB switch/dimmer units like that!!!

......

I recommend Elan G! because I believe it is the best mid-range system available.

.....

Thanks for the recommendation. I have checked the website and so far I can say that I really like the interface and the options it offers. It covers pretty much everything I am looking from a HA system.

But I also see that Elan is an example of a manufacturer that emphasizes on the "authorized dealer" route!! I have no problem with that so long as it is not abused by the dealer to "fix" the price. I also want to amke sure the manufacturer is open to share infomration with someone that is not an avarge consumer and provide technical support in the future without saying "contact your dealer" - passing the buck sort of speak!!

When I visit their website they are so focused on "Authorized Dealer" enforcement that you really don't find much technical information or component connectivity/compatibility. All that I have found so far are "consumer oriented brochures" - more like advertisement, if you know what I mean. So, for exmaple, had you not mentioned that they work on UPB, I would not have known. Nor would I have known what Irrigation control they are compatible with? But it is also possible that I have not researchedd far enough!!!!

At this time I have sent them an email to see what I can learn.

Regardless of the system I choose, I think I will work "together" with a pro installer but as you can guess I like to be very well educated beforehand so that I can make an educated decision and not "just because the pro said so"!!!