HAI Omnipro II better fit for UPB/Zwave?

[mgabe]

I am a new member on the forum, SW engineer by trade. I thought I'd ask the forum's help with some questions.

I have just bought my first house, and am planning to install alarm & home automation. I am in the middle of renovation. Preserving drywalls is not a major concern, and eventually the whole house will be repainted. That said, I would like to install all wires at this point, even though I will probably complete integration at a later point.

These forums were very useful for reading about protocols for controlling switches/lights. I have decided to go with either UPB or Zwave. Secondly, I have narrowed down the alarm system to either a HAI Omnipro II, or an Elk M1. I plan to set up the alarm system to use cell phone service and Ethernet as backup. Thus, if I go with Elk M1, M1XEP is a must. Eventually, I also plan to have the system monitored professionally.

Initially, I was planning to go with Elk M1, but after reading some more, it appears to me that it lends itself better to work with INSTEON, not UPB or Zwave. Is this the case? HAI Omnipro II, on the other hand, supports UPB from the start - even with their own brand switches - and is integrated with Zwave through a Vizia RF module.

With Elk, I would have to use M1XSP for Zwave, that I suspect will need more programming and tinkering. For UPB, there is a separate module as well, but not sure how reliable it would be.

My impression is that there would be less surprises with HAI, especially if I stick with their brandname UPB switches or the Vizia line of switches. I do not want to get stuck endlessly debugging issues, I want stuff to just click and work Or is there any benefit for using Elk M1 if I plan to go with UPB/Zwave?

I am also considering adding some cameras to my security system. I'd like to be able to stream the video to either TVs/iPads/Internet, and possibly storing the streams on a PC. I see that HAI has some offerings for this as well, although I might end up with a custom solution instead through the PC.

Finally, I plan to integrate touchscreens and a home automation SW with the alarm. I have not decided what SW I would use, but am leaning towards CQC/Homeseer. However, I do like that HAI offers Snap Link for mobile devices. As I understand, it already supports iPhone/iPad, and Android is also in the works. I could not find a similar offering for Elk.

So, am I correct with my observations? As you can tell, I am leaning towards HAI as it seems that it will provide easier integration. Given that I would need several extension modules for Elk M1, it appears that price-wise both offerings would be very similar.

 

[pbeaulieu]

I have an OmniPro II and Leviton zwave switches. I am just starting to look at motion detectors. I am also somewhat of a novice. However, I am an experienced IT pro and a very serious home DYIer.

There is lots of info in the forum and you should also check the other forums like Homeseer and CQC etc.

I recently downloaded the trial version of Homeseer to connect to my OmniPro II. I did get it to work after a couple of hours but not all the functionality was there and I'm not sure why. I was looking for something more plug and it works. Others have mentioned in this forum that the HAI pluging for Homeseer has not been updated in a while, although there is a beta version plugin that I also download. I don't mind learning and configuring but I did not want to do troubleshooting. I have to many other projects. You will find some users in this forum that have had a good experience with Homeseer.

I am also looking at HAI WL3 because I already have Microsoft Homeserver backing up my network. Maybe you have already seen this HAI table comparing HAI Software.

I'm sure others have lots of opinions.

 

[JonW]

HAI and UPB work VERY WELL together. If you are going to use an iPhone, iPad, web, etc. for access, having reliable status tracking is a must. HAI does this with UPB, Elk does not. I cannot comment on ZWave as I've not set that up. I have SnapLink (desktop, not mobile) and I also looked at setting up a web interface. I looked at WL2, WL3, CQC, HomeSeer, etc. but after getting the H@ME iPhone app for HAI, I now have no need for the others.

 

[pete_c]

Welcome to the forum Gabe!

Both HAI and Elk are very good panels.

I currently have my HAI OPII set up with X-10 (from legacy X10) with an XTB amplifier, UPB with an HAI UPB Pim and Z-Wave with the Leviton Pim. Mostly house is at X10 still. Maybe 3/4 of the second floor and a few here and there of UPB wall switches, appliance modules and lamp switches. Some Z-Wave relating to only Lamp and Appliance modules; testing the most around Christmas time. I'm still wanting to stay in the powerline mode and have metal conduit / boxes so prefer my inwall switches to be UPB. Leviton Pim / Remote for Z-Wave is relatively simple to configure. A bit more time consuming than the legacy X-10 Christmas lighting to configure. I also utilize Homeseer with Insteon, X10 and UPB PIMS. HS read's status from the OPII and or the powerline switches for more events. The TS's are of the two worlds today (HAI and HS) and sound is similiar with parts utilizing an older AB8SS serial speaker switcher and newer being a Russound 4 Zone amp. I utilize both the Russound Keypads and HAI TS's for the Russound. The "house" TTS is from Homeseer and for many years utilizing Neospeech Kate (my favorite over the years). I have roughly 150 events in the HAI panel with XX number of variables; and about 180 HS events with about 800 variables. The HAI OPII panel has 4 serial ports utilized and Homeseer server is using about 16 serial ports and 2 USB ports via one USB link (Digi USB Hub=> 2X DigiEdgeports8's). I utilize a Zoneminder DVR setup with 8 analogue / 4 IPCams now setup. ZM runs independant of HS but HS receives and sends to the ZM box relating to events. I prefer wired to wireless relating to the OPII panel and utilize some wireless for the HS box. IE: I test my sprinkler's zones wirelessly outside, RFID in the automobiles, etc.

 

[hoang de]

I'm in the same situation like Gabe now. One question I try to find is ELK M1 programming capacity. Does M1 only have 528 lines of programming? It seems a little too small compare to Omnipro2, isn't it? Am I right or wrong?
Thanks

 

[pete_c]

Personally I've never come close to any limits on the HAI OPII; but I keep it simple.

 

[tmbrown97]

There are lots of threads on HAI vs. Elk around here - but the basic gist is either one will do whatever you want. Same with lighting - both have their good and bad. With the Elk you add an XSP any time you need a serial interface, such as for ZWave or UPB. I've been running UPB with Elk for about 3 years now and am very happy with it.

The one place I think going all HAI (including switches) has the advantage is in their HLC mode - I'm no expert on the subject, but I understand that when using HAI switches in HLC mode, it helps overcome the inherent difficulty in tracking status with UPB and using Scenes. There's a little section on that in the UPB link in my signature that explains the issue.

Elk has the eK suite of products to control them from iOS (iPad, iPhone, iPod Touch)

If you go with 3rd party software (Elve, CQC, HS, etc) it'll matter even less which panel you choose - that's where you'd likely want to run your more complex rules; and it'll take care of UPB status on its own.

 

[JonW]

The one place I think going all HAI (including switches) has the advantage is in their HLC mode - I'm no expert on the subject, but I understand that when using HAI switches in HLC mode, it helps overcome the inherent difficulty in tracking status with UPB and using Scenes. There's a little section on that in the UPB link in my signature that explains the issue.

You don't have to buy HAI switches to use HLC mode. I have mostly SAI and PCS switches and I configured their links & ID's per the HAI HLC documents so that they function the same as the HAI HLC switches. I have full status tracking with both the SAI and PCS switches.

 

[pete_c]

PaulB,

I am using the Homeseer serial plugin with my HAI OPII panel. It has not been updated in many years. The serial communications is slow but it works. The HS plugin works fine with the newest FW on the OPII panel. Some nuances though:

1 - the more stable plugin is the standard release not the beta
2 - I use the plugin more for status and not for input to the OPII panel (relating to security).
3 - the standard plugin sees (although not defined) and works with X10,UPB and Z-Wave I have connected to the OPII.
4 - the standard plugin works with the OmniStatII that I have plugged into the OPII
5 - haven't looked or tested what the plugin sees with the Russound plugged into the OPII yet.
6 - I use the wired IR status for ZM, DVR in general, email (relating to OPII) events.
7 - I have additional temp and temp humidity sensors hooked up to the OPII panel and read the sensors with HS (to a database)
8 - I've never tried but I believe it would be feasible to set up my 10 zone sprinkler system with the OPII and run the scheduling with MCS Sprinklers via the HS plugin instead of the currently set up Rain8nets.

Relating to the "beta" HS HAI plugin (I wouldn't recommend using it)
1 - syncs time
2 - totally messed up communications with thermostat (used to use an Omnistat RC80) and would just peg it to maximum heat for whatever reason
3 - recognizes HLC UPB lighting by name. Not sure on the Z-Wave.

 

[pbeaulieu]

PaulB,

I am using the Homeseer serial plugin with my HAI OPII panel. It has not been updated in many years. The serial communications is slow but it works. The HS plugin works fine with the newest FW on the OPII panel. Some nuances though:

1 - the more stable plugin is the standard release not the beta
2 - I use the plugin more for status and not for input to the OPII panel (relating to security).
3 - the standard plugin sees (although not defined) and works with X10,UPB and Z-Wave I have connected to the OPII.
4 - the standard plugin works with the OmniStatII that I have plugged into the OPII
5 - haven't looked or tested what the plugin sees with the Russound plugged into the OPII yet.
6 - I use the wired IR status for ZM, DVR in general, email (relating to OPII) events.
7 - I have additional temp and temp humidity sensors hooked up to the OPII panel and read the sensors with HS (to a database)
8 - I've never tried but I believe it would be feasible to set up my 10 zone sprinkler system with the OPII and run the scheduling with MCS Sprinklers via the HS plugin instead of the currently set up Rain8nets.

Relating to the "beta" HS HAI plugin (I wouldn't recommend using it)
1 - syncs time
2 - totally messed up communications with thermostat (used to use an Omnistat RC80) and would just peg it to maximum heat for whatever reason
3 - recognizes HLC UPB lighting by name. Not sure on the Z-Wave.

Thanks for the info. I'm probably just a little short on patience at the moment. I though to quickly load Homeseer to give it a spin while I was trying to figure out which motion detectors to use and where to place them. I was planning to start a thread with a diagram of my house when my upstairs deck began leaking into my dining room!:wacko: Always something.

 

[mgabe]

First of all, thanks to everyone for their welcome!

I was looking for something more plug and it works. Others have mentioned in this forum that the HAI pluging for Homeseer has not been updated in a while, although there is a beta version plugin that I also download. I don't mind learning and configuring but I did not want to do troubleshooting.

I will have to double-check whether Homeseer or CQC is the better fit for HAI. Debugging issues is what I'd like to avoid.

HAI and UPB work VERY WELL together. If you are going to use an iPhone, iPad, web, etc. for access, having reliable status tracking is a must. HAI does this with UPB, Elk does not. I cannot comment on ZWave as I've not set that up. I have SnapLink (desktop, not mobile) and I also looked at setting up a web interface. I looked at WL2, WL3, CQC, HomeSeer, etc. but after getting the H@ME iPhone app for HAI, I now have no need for the others.

I wasn't aware that Elk has no status tracking. That is quite a significant difference, and might sway me toward HAI in itself. I did notice that it can also do status tracking on Zwave using the Vizia RF+ switched. I will probably start implementing the core functionality on the board, and look into home automation SW at a later point, when I feel it is needed.

Welcome to the forum Gabe!

Both HAI and Elk are very good panels.

I currently have my HAI OPII set up with X-10 (from legacy X10) with an XTB amplifier, UPB with an HAI UPB Pim and Z-Wave with the Leviton Pim. Mostly house is at X10 still. Maybe 3/4 of the second floor and a few here and there of UPB wall switches, appliance modules and lamp switches. Some Z-Wave relating to only Lamp and Appliance modules; testing the most around Christmas time. I'm still wanting to stay in the powerline mode and have metal conduit / boxes so prefer my inwall switches to be UPB. Leviton Pim / Remote for Z-Wave is relatively simple to configure. A bit more time consuming than the legacy X-10 Christmas lighting to configure. I also utilize Homeseer with Insteon, X10 and UPB PIMS. HS read's status from the OPII and or the powerline switches for more events. The TS's are of the two worlds today (HAI and HS) and sound is similiar with parts utilizing an older AB8SS serial speaker switcher and newer being a Russound 4 Zone amp. I utilize both the Russound Keypads and HAI TS's for the Russound. The "house" TTS is from Homeseer and for many years utilizing Neospeech Kate (my favorite over the years). I have roughly 150 events in the HAI panel with XX number of variables; and about 180 HS events with about 800 variables. The HAI OPII panel has 4 serial ports utilized and Homeseer server is using about 16 serial ports and 2 USB ports via one USB link (Digi USB Hub=> 2X DigiEdgeports8's). I utilize a Zoneminder DVR setup with 8 analogue / 4 IPCams now setup. ZM runs independant of HS but HS receives and sends to the ZM box relating to events. I prefer wired to wireless relating to the OPII panel and utilize some wireless for the HS box. IE: I test my sprinkler's zones wirelessly outside, RFID in the automobiles, etc.

You've got more connectivity than I could think of So as far as I understand, no major issues with Homeseer integration, or using Zwave or UPB. That is quite encouraging!

There are lots of threads on HAI vs. Elk around here - but the basic gist is either one will do whatever you want. Same with lighting - both have their good and bad. With the Elk you add an XSP any time you need a serial interface, such as for ZWave or UPB. I've been running UPB with Elk for about 3 years now and am very happy with it.

The one place I think going all HAI (including switches) has the advantage is in their HLC mode - I'm no expert on the subject, but I understand that when using HAI switches in HLC mode, it helps overcome the inherent difficulty in tracking status with UPB and using Scenes. There's a little section on that in the UPB link in my signature that explains the issue.

Elk has the eK suite of products to control them from iOS (iPad, iPhone, iPod Touch)

If you go with 3rd party software (Elve, CQC, HS, etc) it'll matter even less which panel you choose - that's where you'd likely want to run your more complex rules; and it'll take care of UPB status on its own.

Thanks! I will research the HLC mode now. I do like the option for tracking, so that's a plus for the HAI.

You don't have to buy HAI switches to use HLC mode. I have mostly SAI and PCS switches and I configured their links & ID's per the HAI HLC documents so that they function the same as the HAI HLC switches. I have full status tracking with both the SAI and PCS switches.

I was just trying to plan at the high-level first, deciding on the main board. If it works with HAI switches, I can always revert back to that option. Now that you confirm that other brands may be just as good, I will have to research which one to go with. Thanks!

 

[pete_c]

Gabe,

I started to utilize Homeseer around 2000 or so. Started with the HAI OPII around 2004 in current home. In the last couple of years updated installed OPII to newest version of the HAI OPII in the MW and installed the legacy OPII in FL. The house in the MW is kind of my HA sandbox; WAF remains pretty decent as my wife is very patient with my HA experiments. If I didn't have the "spare" HAI OPII and the space I would have installed an Elk panel in FL; to become familiar with the panel.


PaulB,

I had a similiar issue regarding a roof leak with our last windy snow storm. I have one isolated attic (no access from the main house attic). The wind and snow came in two vents and built up in the attic which in turn started leaking water on to the kitchen ceiling when the "drifts" started to melt. Never seen this before; but never have seen such a continous windy blizzard before in the area that live.

 

[tmbrown97]

JonW - That's good to know - I'll remember that; I thought HLC mode was a proprietary mode on their switches; it's good to know they can interop with other manufacturers as well; that could certainly be an HAI advantage.

Gabe - to be clear, the Elk can track status on normal switch usage just fine - it's when you activate a switch through a Link rather than direct that it really doesn't track well. At my last house I didn't use links really so I had accurate status; but in my current house I use a lot more of them and quite frankly, the Elk doesn't keep up well. I'm trying to overcome that by using Elve; Elve does status tracking very well - I just need to figure out how to feed that status back to the M1.

 

[JonW]

JonW - That's good to know - I'll remember that; I thought HLC mode was a proprietary mode on their switches; it's good to know they can interop with other manufacturers as well; that could certainly be an HAI advantage.

HLC is mostly just an ID/LINK allocation scheme. Read all of the attachments and linked articles here: http://kb.homeauto.com/default.asp?id=637. Once you read those docs and understand how it is implemented, you can then use any UPB switches and have them work within HLC.