HAI UPB Troubleshoot

[dgetz]

Thought I would post some newbie lessons as I got my UPB working with my new HAI system this weekend. I was pulling my hair out thinking my house's old wiring was keeping my controller from communicating with any of my switches using the serial PIM. I have a 2000 square foot house built in the early 60's. A majority of my circuits are not grounded and the circuit breaker panel is definitely original. I thought had gotten lucky in that each switch location I had chosen to start with had both a hot (black) and neutral (white) wire. Important to note, since most of my searching could not find an answer: a ground wire is not needed for UPB. I am not an electrician, but i am pretty sure grounding is good wiring practice, but clearly wasn't needed per code when my house was built. Maybe that is obvious to everyone else, and probably should have been to me since the PIM does not have the grounding prong on the plug. I had myself mostly convinced that was my problem though...

I had gotten out an extension cord to literally plug the PIM into the same circuit as each of the switches I had installed. And I had gotten absolutely nothing. No communication and nothing being setup. I had gone through each of the troubleshooting items from the HAI knowledge base. I was about to track down an old serial header card for my computer, as it is new enough to not have a serial port, so I could try to find them using UPstart and my PC. As I brought the PIM and cable over to my work area and unplugged the phone/serial cable I noticed that the jack fit just a slight bit oddly (I don't often use anything with a phone cord these days... ). I had plugged and unplugged all the connections twice already, but upon further inspection of the jack I noticed that two of the sprung wire/pins in the jack were grossly misaligned. Some tweezers, an exacto knife, and some very careful bending and I reconnected everything. SUCCESS!!!! I can not tell you how good it feels the first time you tell a light to go on from the computer or by some lines of programming and it just happens.

Problems like these are always the last place you look... right?

Ok venting/story over. I was proud of myself for finally getting it to work. Fiance, was much less so... :unsure:

 

[ano]

Thought I would post some newbie lessons as I got my UPB working with my new HAI system this weekend. I was pulling my hair out thinking my house's old wiring was keeping my controller from communicating with any of my switches using the serial PIM. I have a 2000 square foot house built in the early 60's. A majority of my circuits are not grounded and the circuit breaker panel is definitely original. I thought had gotten lucky in that each switch location I had chosen to start with had both a hot (black) and neutral (white) wire. Important to note, since most of my searching could not find an answer: a ground wire is not needed for UPB. I am not an electrician, but i am pretty sure grounding is good wiring practice, but clearly wasn't needed per code when my house was built. Maybe that is obvious to everyone else, and probably should have been to me since the PIM does not have the grounding prong on the plug. I had myself mostly convinced that was my problem though...

I had gotten out an extension cord to literally plug the PIM into the same circuit as each of the switches I had installed. And I had gotten absolutely nothing. No communication and nothing being setup. I had gone through each of the troubleshooting items from the HAI knowledge base. I was about to track down an old serial header card for my computer, as it is new enough to not have a serial port, so I could try to find them using UPstart and my PC. As I brought the PIM and cable over to my work area and unplugged the phone/serial cable I noticed that the jack fit just a slight bit oddly (I don't often use anything with a phone cord these days... ). I had plugged and unplugged all the connections twice already, but upon further inspection of the jack I noticed that two of the sprung wire/pins in the jack were grossly misaligned. Some tweezers, an exacto knife, and some very careful bending and I reconnected everything. SUCCESS!!!! I can not tell you how good it feels the first time you tell a light to go on from the computer or by some lines of programming and it just happens.

Problems like these are always the last place you look... right?

Ok venting/story over. I was proud of myself for finally getting it to work. Fiance, was much less so... :unsure:

Congratulations on getting a UPB switch to run. No small accomplishment.

The issue with the non-grounded boxes brings up a few other topics, and you are correct, it probably wasn't required when the house was built, but this is where it gets complex. In some areas, even just replacing a switch like you did constitutes a modification of the wiring which may require you to bring up the circuit to current standards. I'm not saying this is the case, only that its a possibility.

What is a bit scary is that UPB switches are much more complex than a plain old switch, meaning that if something failed in the switch it could cause it to be electronically "hot" and potentially cause a shock. Again, not saying this will happen, only that its possible.

One way to protect yourself from this would be to install a ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) in the breaker panel for that circuit. Then, if the switch were to go electronically hot, and you or someone touched it and were grounded, the power would turn off. Whether you can even get a GFCI for an older panel is another matter.

In any case something to think about, and if you are going to install a bunch of UPB switches, really something to think about.

In any case, UPB switches should work fine without a ground and the other topics are just something if your so inclined.

 

[cornutt]

A majority of my circuits are not grounded and the circuit breaker panel is definitely original.

Just out of curiosity, what brand is you panel?

 

[dgetz]

Congratulations on getting a UPB switch to run. No small accomplishment.

Thanks. You are correct, and I agree that there are many concerns to not grounding, and ultimately it is my goal to fix a lot of my wiring. In most cases switches I can get to and pull new wires. Any new wiring work I have done is per code. Installing an alarm was a top priority over a complete electrical overhaul and circuit panel. What was unclear to me going in was that a ground is definitely not necessary for UPB to communicate over the power lines.

Just out of curiosity, what brand is you panel?

It is unfortunately a Federal Pacific panel, which as my home inspector noted when I moved in is known for having issues. Apparently the circuits sometimes do not to trip (as bad as 60% of the time) and cause fires. It is also only 100 amp and due the 'issues' is virtually impossible to add circuits to. It is on the long list of improvements needed for my house, but one of the ones with high cost to little visible impact.

 

[cornutt]

It is unfortunately a Federal Pacific panel, which as my home inspector noted when I moved in is known for having issues. Apparently the circuits sometimes do not to trip (as bad as 60% of the time) and cause fires. It is also only 100 amp and due the 'issues' is virtually impossible to add circuits to. It is on the long list of improvements needed for my house, but one of the ones with high cost to little visible impact.

Oh man... that's what I was afraid you were going to say. Those things are a serious hazard. One of the big documented problems with FPE panels is with the double-pole breakers. If an overcurrent occurs on one leg, then when the breaker tries to trip, it will jam internally. After that, the breaker can never be shut off again; a dead short won't trip it, and moving the handle to "off" manually won't shut it off. Also the bus mechanism is poorly designed; the panel can start arcing internally and you won't know it until something melts. Federal Pacific was caught rigging their certification tests and lost their UL listing on these panels because of it. Some insurers will cancel you if they find out that you have a FPE panel. Most stores won't sell replacement breakers for it anymore because of the potential liability, and some electricians will refuse to work on it.

Seriously, you need to move that to near the top of your list. I know it's not a sexy improvement, but it's better than having your house burn down, or getting electrocuted because of a breaker that won't shut off.

 

[JonW]

Seriously, you need to move that to near the top of your list. I know it's not a sexy improvement, but it's better than having your house burn down, or getting electrocuted because of a breaker that won't shut off.

Good advice right here. I had a panel replaced a few years back and it really wasn't all that expensive (even in SoCal). I would bet you could have it done for $750 - $1500 (just my guess on pricing). Get some quotes, I think you'll find it's not that big of a deal to get it done.