HAI vs Elk Vs Control4 for my house?

[aewingsmn]

First, I'm going to apologize for starting a noob topic abou my specific scenario, as i know in other forums it can be taboo, but I really am looking for advice on what to do.

I am a new homeowner, in a house with a TON of systems. I am a bit of a techy and enjoy it, but I need a better method of controlling everything as I am military and out of the house a lot. I've already run into multiple issues causing over 20k in damges due to inability to control my systems.

Here is what I need to be able to control:
Jandy Aqualink Pool system
Orbit Sprinkler System-9 zones split between 2 controllers
5 outdoor security cameras (none installed yet)
7.1 Surround Sound with second zone to 3 rooms of speakers, also HDMI 4x2 switch for video in 2 rooms. Currently all run via 2 URC MX-3000 controllers and macros. IR repeaters used extensively.
HVAC- 2 thermostats
Home Security-currently ADT via DSC hardware
13 windows for blinds (nothing actually wired/installed yet just manual windows)
17 Lighting zones with 7 of them being on 3way switches (all manual switches curently)
3 Keypad Door Handles (all manual currently)
1 Garage Door Opener

I don't need any control points as I would love to use my Ipads and Android tablets/phones as my controllers.

I have access to control4 discounts through an employer of mine, but I need to be able to DIY, so I think that is out as an option. Once I learn how to program something, i'm good with it, I programmed my MX-3000 extensively and have a programming background elsewhere. The house is not prewired for everything (just the security points), so I don't mind spending extra on something based on a wireless technology like zigbee. I also need to be able to access these systems worldwide from the internet/my tablets.

I'm in the Northern California area, and wouldn't mind advice from someone in the local area who can teach me the specifics of how to get started. I had been strongly looking at control4, but need to be able to DIY which is how I found out about HAI. I think this is probably the way to go, as long as it can handle my needs.

 

[aewingsmn]

also, now that i've looked at this forums a little more, I think this thread might be in the wrong spot... mods, please let me know if you move it....

 

[sic0048]

The problem with HAI and Elk is the limitations in the hardware you can use. Don't get me wrong, they both work with a lot of stuff, but not as much stuff as a true automation system generally will be able to control. That is OK when you are building from the ground up, but when you are trying to integrate stuff that is already bought/installed, then you really need to make sure the controller you pick is able to interface with all your equipment.

Control4 or another true automation system is probably your best bet. However, like you discovered, Control4 is generally not DIY friendly. Those automation systems that are more DIY friendly are generally more software based control systems (ie the main controller runs on a computer rather than a dedicated piece of OEM hardware).

Personally I use http://www.charmedquark.com/ (also called CQC) for my automation system. It is not free, but is very DIY friendly and I think it can control all of the hardware you listed. CQC has several "levels" that you can buy. The good news is that generally speaking, while the number of different devices you can control is decided by what level you are in, you can pick and choose the different devices without any additional cost. So the cost is kind of based on the number of different devices you control, not what the actual devices are.

There are other options in this realm too.

http://cocoontech.co...e-home-control/ is a link to the Premise forum here on Cocoontech. It use to be a paid software application from Motorola, but they dropped out of the business and open sourced the project. There are still some dedicated people developing the software. The good news is that it is free, but the bad news is that support is user based only.

http://www.homeseer.com/ is another option that many people like to use. Again it is a paid system. The initial costs can be lower than something like CQC, but it seems like you will have to pay to buy new features and abilities for every device you want to control. So if you want to control a receiver from brand "A", but you have paid to control a receiver from brand "B", you'll have to buy the brand "A" driver even if it is the only device you want to hook up. (Unlike CQC where you might have 10 devices of any kind and can mix, match, or replace them at any time without additional cost).

So as you can see, there is a lot to think about. Cocoontech is a great resource, but also be sure to check out the user forums of the above software to learn more too.

Welcome! I hope we can help you achieve your goals.

 

[Del91574]

Agree with the above, however I would use a security platform for just that, and integrate to a dedicated automation platform that has some more muscle that complements the security platform.

I would not recommend nor expect most automation platforms to truly act and be as reliable as a dedicated security platform.

 

[rwarshawski]

Welcome to the club! Not only is it a lot of fun, but it is a very useful tool. And that is what your house should be- a very useful(automated) tool.

I use a combo system. Actually I have 2 separate installations, each a little different. The first is an x-10/UPB hybrid (phasing out the x10 as $ permit) controlled by HAL (automatedliving.com) great at scheduling, modes, voice activatio, etc. Has saved the house a few times when the boiler has failed- it emails me the temp inside when it gets below a certain level- but it's really the day to day that I find it helpful.

The other system is all UPB, run by a combo of HAL and Cinemar's Home Lobby. With this one I get touchpad controls- I have 2 older tablet PC's and now a few iPads and iPhones- which are the primary interfaces. Can control my TV, cable box, Russound, Blueray, digital movies, phone, answering machine (emails me a wav file if I don't pick it up in a certain time)motorized blinds, garage door, thermostats, etc. Can do cameras but I don't have them yet. Can tinker endlessly with it if you want- take a look at this-http://james.lipsit.com. I also have a few Global Cache devices and Adicon Ocelots, but I am not savvy enough to do much with them other than IR control. The system can control irrigation. Oh- they are integrated with Elk M1 Gold systems- the Elk is primarily an alarm system at this point but can initiate modes and other actions. Am planning to use its motion sensors more widely when I get a chance. The voice control works v. well too. Even from a hands free in the car if I forget to go online and turn the heat up when we are off to the mountains.
My installer is designing a system fo rone of my partners who is a C5 quadraplegic. He can use it to dial the phone, play music(he can't handle a CD very well) call for help, open doors(RFID- we told him we would take him to the vet and put a chip in his neck...!)- even email a grocery list to the market!
If you are interested drop me a PM and I can give you more details.

bob

 

[tmbrown97]

Welcome!

I'm also in Northern California - and I'm a small-time automation installer/dealer - mostly just help to people out as I can; I'm not making a living doing HA, but I'm pretty handy, and very technical... most of my experience is in commercial and my own and friends' homes. For my day-to-day, I'm a high level IT engineer. I'd be happy to help where I can.

I personally use an Elk M1G as the base of my security system - it does so much out of the box - like my security, lighting, irrigation control, HVAC control... simple iPhone control - it's great. Then I use Elve to do the extra stuff that the Elk can't do. When I picked the Elk, I looked at their partners and found out what systems it integrated well with, and chose those. They have preferred systems that integrate well for lighting, HVAC, audio, and many others. HAI is very similar in this aspect, but has more out-of-the-box integration with even more systems, such as their own audio, home theater control, etc.

A few years ago, HAI or Elk was about the only way to go, and mostly Elk because HAI only recently started supporting DIYers. That said, I'd give both a hard look - especially HAI these days since they've been so active in bringing in more systems, and they have add-on modules that can control just about anything. Otherwise you can always go with something like a MiCasaVerde Vera and all Z-Wave and get similar, or look at one of the many software options (Premise, Elve, CQC, HAL, etc). It's a tough decision, but you have to figure out what fits your comfort level best as the "master" controller that everything else will be built around.

The reason I chose to base mine around security first, is that out-of-the-box, I can control everything very simply... without spending weeks on touchscreen interfaces. That said, one of these days I'll make some awesome Elve touchscreen interfaces that'll take things to a new level. But, in the mean time, I have a great system. And, for software options that charge per interface, having lighting, sprinklers, HVAC, security, and lighting all included in a single system (the Elk interface), it saves money on those systems as well.

 

[aewingsmn]

Thanks all for the advice. Luckily/unfortunately, I am about 6 months away from doing any of this due to other projects around the house (and promising the wife she can hire an interior decorator).

That being said, after looking at a few of the options, I'm looking strongly towards Homeseer initially.with the ability of maybe expanding to HAI later. The primary reason behind this is that I'm not sure what it takes to replace the security system, and I was able to find how to adapt the homeseer to use my currently installed system that has all of the sensors I need.

The biggest issue I see with it is that i can't seem to find a good way to interact with my Jandy Aqualink pool controller, other than possibly a driver written by Barry Gordon.

The rain8 seems like it will work, and it has support with homeseer and eventually HAI (UPB only).

I'll probably do Z-wave locks (kwikset) and am debating between the cooper light dimmers and doing Lutron (any advice?)

Their website seems to have some good prices on security cameras and garage door openers and thermostats.

Finally, it seems easy to leave my home theater IR controlled and just integrate it into the system. My brain wrapped around IR macros pretty easily, so I'd like to keep it that way.

I would do the HS-pro. I was tempted to do the solid state controller Pro-100, but i can just purchase a permanently on computer for now and save money while I'm not sure if it's the permanent solution. I can always upgrade to the pro-100 later.

I essentially will want a solution in place before I go on my next deployment... I can (and much to the wife's probably disgust, probably will) tweak it and keep making changes (hence why I need DIY).

work2play, I'd gladly take your help/advice. PM me.

 

[sic0048]

Well I know CQC has both a DSC alarm and a Jandy Aqualink driver avalable. I understand it can be very daunting to try and select an automation system. But go slowly and really look at the systems before diving in. If you don't know the positives and negatives of the system you are looking at, then you need to research it further. THe problem is that many times people dive right in and spend a decent amount of money on software/hardware only to realize there was some "gotcha" that they didn't realize. Of course by that time they are so far along that they are pretty much stuck with the system they initially selected.

The biggest issue I have with Homerseer is that many of the drivers/plugins are developed, sold, and supported by individuals. There have been cases where the individuals disappeared (or in one case the developer actually passed away) and the users are left holding the bag. The system will continue to work as long as there isn't a change in the main Homeseer software that "breaks" the driver/plugin. But as soon as that happens, the user is out of luck and must find other alternatives. At best this means buying another driver/plugin to replace the one you already have, or worse case is that you have to replace the hardware to something else that is still supported.

That's not to say that CQC is perfect (because its not), but I'm trying to demonstrate some of the pitfalls that I have seen people get trapped by.

 

[aewingsmn]

Thanks, good info. Yeah, that's why I said that I'm lucky (unfortunately) that I have 6 months or so before I'll be ready to do it. I've noticed that most have a trial software, so I plan on checking those out and researching over time.

 

[Swancoat]

I'm using a Mac, so I'll bring that perspective...

I have an Elk M1G for security, and my Home Automation/Lighting is controlled by Indigo on my Mac. When I got into this, Indigo was (still is) the best software I could find for a Mac, and it basically was an Insteon controller.

Aside: Insteon has its supporters and detractors for sure. It seems like there was a rep for bad quality back in the day, but my only experience with that was a widely acknowledged bug with some of the thermostat adapters. Smarthome made good on it though, and shipped out updated modules free of charge, with pre-paid return packaging for your old one. No problems since. In my experience it's been pretty good. I'm now somewhere north of 50 devices, and haven't had any failures. My biggest issue is the occasional missed signal (but even those seem rarer and rarer), and some slow performance (when say, shutting off a large number of devices at once. It may take several seconds to make its way to every device). However, Insteon is cheaper than most other setups, so that helps a lot.

Back to Indigo... This year the developers came out with version 5 which supports a plugin architecture, and the community has kind of gone crazy with it. My Indigo Home Automation system is now integrated with input and/or control of my Elk M1G Panel, Pentair Intellitouch pool/spa interface, Davis Vantage Pro weather station, Security/IP cameras, and NuVo GrandConcerto. (I even wrote two of the plugins myself). Someone also wrote an awesome plugin called Smarthphone Radar that checks your router logs for your phone's MAC address, and after a user-defined idle time sets your status to 'Away' or 'Vacation'.

 

[lupinglade]

Since you're a Mac user, have a look at HAI + Haiku and HaikuHelper (Haiku runs on iOS and HaikuHelper runs on Mac). We're the devs of the product. There is a sub forum here on Cocoontech where you can get more info/questions answered. You should be able to integrate with just about anything with this combination, provided you have some experience.

 

[heffneil]

+1 big fan of HAI omnipro with Haiku and Haiku Helper. I have replaced all of my omnipro ii's with iports and ipads. Up to 5 ipads all in all on my home running haiku in dedicated locations and I would be lost without it! It pulls my everfocus camera system together along with my omnpro II which I use for security, climate, and lighting. My house is a retrofit with over 150 switches. Can you imagine building a house today with 150 switches and having no lighting system? Well the guy who built my house did that and I went through and utilized UPB via HLC with the omnipro II and it is the best thing I ever did. I even put an omnipro ii in the guest house next door and it is fantastic. There are UPB devices for controlling your sprinklers (although I am not using them currently but hope to in the future)

Good luck!

Neil

 

[jmorris644]

+1 big fan of HAI omnipro with Haiku and Haiku Helper. I have replaced all of my omnipro ii's with iports and ipads. Up to 5 ipads all in all on my home running haiku in dedicated locations and I would be lost without it! It pulls my everfocus camera system together along with my omnpro II which I use for security, climate, and lighting. My house is a retrofit with over 150 switches. Can you imagine building a house today with 150 switches and having no lighting system? Well the guy who built my house did that and I went through and utilized UPB via HLC with the omnipro II and it is the best thing I ever did. I even put an omnipro ii in the guest house next door and it is fantastic. There are UPB devices for controlling your sprinklers (although I am not using them currently but hope to in the future)

Good luck!

Neil

I can second all of this!! I just built a new house after a year of researching and planning. The combination of HAI and Haiku is amazing. Plus, if you have a Mac in the house you can utilize Haiku Helper and develop custom web pages to control everything. I have about 125 switches in the new house. I also have cameras, sprinklers, HVAC (Geothermal and all of the thermostats with in-floor and A/C), security, lighting, doorbell, driveway, fence gates, etc. all controlled by the HAI and Haiku. I can control and monitor all of these from anywhere in the world real-time with Haiku. Plus I did almost all of it myself. Had a blast doing it and still having fun.

I did try some of the software solutions mentioned in this thread but really found it difficult to reliably manage all of the hardware. Initially the HAI/Haiku solution is a plug-and-go yet totally customizable as you move forward.

I would love to share more if you want to PM me or give me a call (PM to give me your number)

Joe

 

[pete_c]

Here I use HAI for hardware and Homeseer for software; both work with each other and both will function independant of each other.

I'm always playing with lighting and today have X10, Insteon, UPB and Z-Wave in place.

Nice to hear about Barry Gordon. Great person and it was nice to meet him and wife many many years ago; "papa" automation....