Hardware Feature comparison?

[PeterW]

The switches we have are the older 1120W's, not the 1130's that you mentioned. I don't know if it is significant or not in their behavior.

We're not using ramping. The devices in question are not dimmable. They're high efficiency (electronic ballast) fluroescent lights. They actually turn on pretty close to instantly when electrical power is applied.

The switchlinc-relay devices we had made the audible click when powering on. I went and dug one up from the junk pile and rechecked it about half an hour ago, and yes, it is still "instant" with the switchlinc-relay devices. Just like with a mechanical toggle switch.

With the 1120W's, when I press the rocker, there is a short pause. Then, at the same time, the light turns on as the switch makes the typical UPB 'bzzt' sound as it transmits a message over the powerline. I attached my telltale light to the join and it lit up in near perfect time with the kitchen light and the start of the 'bzzt'.

According to upstart, the dimmer function is disabled. The fade rate is greyed out and listed as 'Snap!'.

But.. there's no way to disable double-tap processing on upstart. But, curiously, an actual double-tap doesn't make it any faster. I can get in 4 or 5 rapid taps before it begins transmitting or turning on the load.

Anyway, this gives me an excuse to mess with the insteon switchlinc-relay devices now and finally get around to writing some software to talk to it.

 

[PeterW]

I admit the UPB switches are tall and are a tight fit into a box (so far, I haven't had to replace any boxes) - but I haven't noticed the delay issue you speak of with the tap vs double tap.

This house is about 30-something years old. It has old evil bakelite junction boxes behind the switches.. The bakelite walls are quite thick and taper in somewhat.

I managed to disintegrate one without doing (much) damage to the wall, and replace it with a modern plastic box. I'll be damned if I'm going to do that again if I can help it.

 

[PeterW]

This statement caught my eye in Peter's post (excellent post BTW):

X10 transmitters and other X10 signal absorbers seem to like the taste of insteon carrier too and seem to absorb it as well

I thought Insteon's claim to fame was that they were immune to these types of (same X-10) problems!!

Well.... its a very interesting question, isn't it? There are some mitigating factors to consider, but (as I see it) some serious gotchas still.

As you all know, an X10 transmitter device (including 2-way switches that can report status) are a tuned circuit that absorb 5%-30% of the X10 signal passing by. When you have a long run of devices on a circuit, that doesn't leave much signal to reach the end. Especially if it was degraded on the way to the breaker box. Smarthome even says that the worst possible thing you can do is put multiple 2-way X10 devices in a 2, 3 or 4 way J-box. Together in a cluster, they'll easily abosrb 30-50% of the signal that reaches them.

The problem is that the insteon carrier is "close" to the X10 carrier. I'd be very surprised of older or cheaper X10 devices were not that finely tuned and absorbed some insteon signal as well.

But then you have the problem of non-X10 devices that absorb signal.. TV's, computer power supplies, UPS's, fluroescent light ballasts, etc. The difference between 120KHz (x10) and 130KHz (insteon) is going to be irrelevant to those signal suckers.

Insteon's claim to fame is that its a flood/mesh network. Every single insteon device will retransmit every packet it receives, but with a loop counter decremented. Effectively this means that each neighbor will relay for the next one.

The problem is.. what if you've got a long haul with no insteon repeaters along the way? And a bunch of greedy 120KHz/130KHz signal suckers at various stages along the way? Or other greedy X10 devices?

I tried an experiment a few weeks ago on the circuit that gives me so much trouble with X10. 12 X10 transmitters,the longest run in the house, lots of nousy devices and other signal suckers etc. There were no other nearby insteon devices to "help" by passing on the messages. It was a spectacular failure. This suggests to me that this kind of prolbem is going to be real.

Fortunately for me, a signalinc-RF was convenient to put roughly mid-way in the run. (unfortunately, I used half of my phase bridge for this.. oh well. Both signalinc-rf's are now on the same phase.)

Insteon depends on the mesh to be reliable. If you don't have enough devices to form a mesh, you're still in trouble. At least the protocol doesn't suck like X10, and you know if the message made it through or not.

And don't forget, insteon devices are *also* X10 transmitters that absorb X10 signal. By the time you have enough insteon devices to form a reliable mesh, you can be sure that your remaining X10 devices are going to be in tears.

I'm not sure if I think this is an evil, accidental or stunningly brilliant plan on Smarthome's part. The more Insteon you add, the better Insteon will work, and the worse the remaining X10 devices will work.

 

[PeterW]

@PeterW:

Here's some good news on the UPB iolinc equivalent. It's the SAI UMI-32.
....
It's got 3 inputs and two outputs. The inputs can be a variety of contact closure/voltage sense. Retail is around the same as the iolnic. Automatedoutlet stocks them too. Search for umi32.
....
I've also not noticed any size issues with my SAI switches. The one's I ordered were about the same length as a switchlinc 2380 and not quite as deep. I'm using US1130W's, the single rocker only version. I'd imagine the 4 contact version would be a bit bigger since it's got 4 times the capability of a switchlinc.

Oh yes, I've been looking at the UMI32's on automatedoutlet. I just wish there was a 4 or 8 output version. 2-output gets expensive quickly. But not quite as quickly as a single appliance module with a 24VAC wall transformer I guess. Several UMI32's have been in/out of my automatedoutlet shopping cart many times over the last few months.

Is the 1130W body tapered by any chance? Can you measure one for me and give me the exact length of the body? The smarthome devices I have are all tapered and fit nicely into the tapered J-boxes I have. The 1120W's are just a 2 or 3 millimeters too long (say 1/8 inch) to fit.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Yea, your points, if all true, does give UPB the edge!

I remember at the last CES show, the HAI booth had UPB switches and lights working, ... , in the Las Vegas Convention Center. This was amazing to me as there were tone of video displays, automation booths, computers, plus it's a maze of hap-hazardly layed out AC with extension cords all over the place.

I mean, what a harsh environment for a product dependent on the powerline to work in (noise, signal suckers, etc...). It worked EVERY time a button was pushed! Now granted the units were not far away from each other, but still, that AC system just had to be a mess!

 

[smee]

The problem is.. what if you've got a long haul with no insteon repeaters along the way? And a bunch of greedy 120KHz/130KHz signal suckers at various stages along the way? Or other greedy X10 devices?

I tried an experiment a few weeks ago on the circuit that gives me so much trouble with X10. 12 X10 transmitters,the longest run in the house, lots of nousy devices and other signal suckers etc. There were no other nearby insteon devices to "help" by passing on the messages. It was a spectacular failure. This suggests to me that this kind of prolbem is going to be real.

Can you add one or more "helper" Insteon modules along the way? These don't need to have anything plugged into them. They would just be there to repeat the signal.

I'm not saying this is the most economical way to do things. I'm just wondering how well it would work.

 

[kwilcox]

But.. there's no way to disable double-tap processing on upstart. But, curiously, an actual double-tap doesn't make it any faster. I can get in 4 or 5 rapid taps before it begins transmitting or turning on the load.

Yikes! Based on that I can say that unless there's something odd about the way these switches handle fluorescent, the 1130's fix the delay issue then. There's no way I could physically tap 4-5 times fast enough to beat the lights. Say "click-a-bling" quickly and imagine trying to tap a switch 4-5 times yourself in this time period and you'll see what I mean. Besides, this must be a firmware fix because on my switches the second tap always immediately invokes the double-tap programming which in my case is the default (snap on/off).

Here's SAI's take on the size btw:

Dimensions: 4.2x1.7x1.6"
depth inside J-box 1.25"

I don't have any lying around so I'm not sure if they taper. I seem to remember that they were pretty square though.

That's interesting info on the X10 vs Insteon reliability situation btw. I never considered that increasing the size of one's Insteon installation would potentially decrease the reliability of the X10 installation.

 

[PeterW]

The problem is.. what if you've got a long haul with no insteon repeaters along the way? And a bunch of greedy 120KHz/130KHz signal suckers at various stages along the way? Or other greedy X10 devices?

I tried an experiment a few weeks ago on the circuit that gives me so much trouble with X10. 12 X10 transmitters,the longest run in the house, lots of nousy devices and other signal suckers etc. There were no other nearby insteon devices to "help" by passing on the messages. It was a spectacular failure. This suggests to me that this kind of prolbem is going to be real.

Can you add one or more "helper" Insteon modules along the way? These don't need to have anything plugged into them. They would just be there to repeat the signal.

I'm not saying this is the most economical way to do things. I'm just wondering how well it would work.

That's precisely what I did. I plugged an insteon device into the one and only AC outlet that was about halfway along the run..

BTW: from Smarhome's documentation:

INSTEON’s Effect on X10
If your existing X10 devices seem to be working less reliably after installing INSTEON devices, remember
that INSTEON devices can absorb X10 signals just as X10 devices do, and that INSTEON devices do not
repeat X10 signals. Installing INSTEON-compatible BoosterLinc X10 Signal Boosters, Smarthome
#4827, or a SignaLinc Plug-In Coupler-Repeater, #4826, can increase X10 signal levels.

Also note that you'll need the NEW boosterlinc devices made after Feb 1st, 2005. The older boosterlinc devices, and things like switchlinc devices with boosterlinc mode built in are unfriendly to insteon.

Possible BoosterLinc Interference with INSTEON
If you have installed older Smarthome Plug-In BoosterLincâ„¢ X10 Signal Boosters or certain other
BoosterLinc-enabled products, the older BoosterLinc technology may interfere with INSTEON
communications.
Plug-In BoosterLinc X10 Signal Boosters, Smarthome #4827, shipped after February 1, 2005, with V3.0
or later firmware, are fully compatible with INSTEON.
The following Plug-In BoosterLinc X10 Signal Boosters use older firmware that may cause interference
with INSTEON:
• White BoosterLinc X10 Signal Boosters, #4827, shipped before February 1, 2005, with V2.5 or earlier
firmware
• All Gray BoosterLinc X10 Signal Boosters, #4827
Try unplugging the older BoosterLinc X10 Signal Boosters to see if this helps with INSTEON interference.
If it does, please call 800-SMARTHOME (800-762-7846) for help with replacing your older BoosterLinc
X10 Signal Boosters with newer INSTEON-compatible ones.

It seems there are land mines and dragons lurking.... To their credit, it sounds like they might be making an effort to fix the boosterlinc stuff, but.. wow.

 

[AutomatedOutlet]

Very interesting post. Thanks. We scroll through the Boosterlincs very rapidly so all of our stock is the current version.

You did get me thinking though, what about the Boosters in the Keypadlincs, 2-way Togglelincs, and relay timers??

I have a conference call scheduled with Smarthome tomorrow morning......


Thanks

 

[PeterW]

• KeypadLinc™ 6 with Integrated Dimmer,
#12073W, #12073WB and #12073WW
• SwitchLinc™ Relay 2-Way,
#23883 and #23883T
• ToggleLinc™ 2-Way Dimmer,
#23890, and Switch, #23893

.. are all products with boosterlink that should be disabled. And they give instructions in the signalink-rf documentation on how to do it.

http://www.smarthome.com/manuals/2442.pdf

IMHO, the switchlinc-relay 2-way devices should be disconnected completely due to the X10 protocol bugs in them. If three of them transmit together, they trash the X10 network until you power cycle the circuit that they are on or otherwise disconnect them. Sometimes you can trigger it by simply pressing the 'on' side of the toggle at the exact same time for two devices that are right next to each other.

The other problem with the switchlinc-relay (x10, not insteon) devices is that they transmit a stray X10 command when they power up. eg: if they're programmed to C-6, when you turn on the breaker, they'll transmit "C-ON" or "C-OFF". Now, if you have three of these devices on the same breaker.. you've got very good odds that a power cycle will lead to a locked-up X10 network. On average, I can repeat this with 3 to 5 power cycles at the breaker.

I've had no luck even getting an ack from smarthome that its even a problem that they're concerned about. Back then though (late last year), I guess they were all busy working on Insteon and too busy to fix their current products.

This particular bug and their non-interest in fixing it is what finally tipped me over the edge and try UPB. I'm so glad I did. I use UPB for the important things now and gave up on trying to make X10 work.

 

[SmarthomeJohn]

It seems there are land mines and dragons lurking.... To their credit, it sounds like they might be making an effort to fix the boosterlinc stuff, but.. wow..

Hi Peter, you are correct about the concern we placed on the BoosterLinc issue when introducing the Insteon products. We are trying to be *very* up-front on the issue where some products with BoosterLinc technology may cause problems for the Insteon signals.

For the plug-in BoosterLinc modules sold before Feb 2005, our customer service team will gratefully exchange them for a replacement with Insteon-friendly code. Just call or email them.

For the wire-in modules that have the BoosterLinc feature, we did not have the code space in the processor to include the more complicated code (so that it works with Insteon). Still, our customer service team and their managers can make you happy. That is, if you MUST disable the BoosterLinc feature in (say your KeypadLinc), they can cut you a deal on a plug-in BoosterLinc (assuming you can use it to restore your problem). Please be polite when making the request! However, don't expect a BoosterLinc for free just because you *say* you had to disable the feature in all your KeypadLinc and you don't have any Insteon products.

SJ

 

[PeterW]

I have 4 standalone (older) boosterlinc's and something like 8 switchlinc-relay (and variant, the relay-timer). When I was trying to get to the bottom of the X10 storm issue with the switchlinc-relays, the CS person suggested it might be a repeater storm and that I turn all the boosterlinc features off, which I did. I've triple-checked that it is off on every device. I gave detailed 'how to repeat' information and the issue died out about there. (BTW: to re-iterate, the easiest way to trigger the bug is to put switchlinc-relay devices at D4, D5 and D6, then issue a grouped "D4 D5 D6 Dstatus-request" command. All three devices will reply in sync, and will then trash the X10 network till you power cycle them. I've only done this in-situ in the house wiring, not on a standalone power strip or the like. There are other ways to trigger it too, but this (admittedly useless) X10 command is the easiest.)

I'm not actually using any of the boosterlinc's, and haven't been for over 6 months. I have a signalinc repeater (#4826B) right next to the breaker box and at the time I was frightened of repeater storms. I added an extra dryer outlet in the garage to get it as close to the breaker bus as possible.

I only have a couple of X10 devices left on the "other" phase. I don't know why it worked out this way, but 90% of the devices of interest were on a single phase. I can't complain about that. I've been thinking of removing the coupler/repeater and either removing the few leftover X10 devices on the other phase or putting a seperate computer controller there. Since that phase has mostly got upb appliance modules there for controlling my fish tank water systems, my inclination is to just stick with upb for the few "other" devices. (There are no insteon appliancelinc v2's yet, so thats not an option. I need 10-15 amps peak (too much for a lamplinc v2), and besides, I've already written my own upb software for this..)

Regarding the boosterlinc conflicts.. I remeber reading about it in something that came with either the insteon sdk or starter kit. Admittedly, I wasn't looking too hard on smarthome's web site, but I did notice the boosterlinc warning right there on the product info pages last night for the first time. I didn't see that until after my posts above though. I was speculating and extrapolating based on observed behavior about the X10 signal degradation thing though. I was most amused to find that the very issue I was speculating about was written up in plain detail on the product pages and that I just hadn't seen it.

So yes, my hat is off to you for being up-front about it!

However, the note on the product pages says: "For existing X10 users with Booster-enabled products, click here for more information.". You don't find out about the "INSTEON's affect on X10" footnote unless you follow the boosterlinc trail...

And even more amusing, the automatedoutlet.com store doesn't have any warnings at all...

 

[electron]

AutomatedOutlet isn't the manufacture tho, they just resell the hardware. I don't think any other stores carry this 'notice', and I doubt that most store owners even know about this issue.

 

[kwilcox]

I feel your pain PeterW. Large X10 installations in any form are a chore to maintain and have good and bad days even if nothing's changing. I used to cringe whenever I contemplated adding another swith for fear that the delicate balance would be upset. I'm now upgrading to UPB on a room by room basis. My daughter's room with her tricky fishtank macro is next...

 

[PeterW]

I've found that the only way to stay sane with X10 is to start with a fairly detailed map of the power runs. Approximately where the wire goes, what switches/outlets and in what order, the run lengths etc. This gives a pretty good idea where to strategically place repeaters etc. You can usually see where the trouble spots are going to be as well.

But, as you say, a large X10 installation has a 'mood'. At some point you realize that things are mostly working and that you start to get sufficiently frightened of making it angry that you have to just stop tinkering and let it be. A lightolier X10 firewall would probably solve the problem completely here, but its just out of the question in this house.

I've been adding upb devices without fear of disturbing the sleeping giant. Insteon however, makes me nervous. I am tinkering though. I have some more devices on the far side of another GFCI (front gate lights, fountain, etc) that I'm thinking about giving insteon another try with. I want an insteon appliancelinc v2 though. I can add an extra signalinc-rf to carry the signal across the GFCI if needed.

BTW: Fish tank lighting can be murder for X10 signals. Especially electronic ballasts. Even more so with 30 tanks. The CF ballasts I got from ahsupply.com completely and utterly wipe out X10 in the area (the core oscillator frequency is 60KHz, the 2nd harmonic is 120KHz, right smack over the top of X10 carrier). I ended up using a leviton noise filter in the tank cover next to the ballast, and the whole thing is connected via a smarthome filterlinc. And that goes through a local GFCI in the wall. The UPB modules don't seem to mind though.

Speaking of UPB and noise.. We recently added a bunch of UPS's around the house (for phones and ethernet switches). I've noticed the UPB signal levels have dropped by about 30% since I last tested them about 3 months ago. Did I see somebody mention that they were seeing their UPS's absorbing the off-phase UPB pulses? (We have a UPB passive phase coupler, but I'm trying to get a different one that is more convenient to wire in)

The other thought that occurred to me.. UPB transmits by charging a capacitor and discharging it onto the mains to give a voltage spike. I believe the capacitor noise is what makes the characteristic 'bzzt' when a UPB device transmits. The reason I wonder is that the signal level drop I saw is in one direction only.. the PIM sees the remote devices with the strength slider right at the top. But the remote devices only see the level at 60-70% of the top. I was wondering if there might be capacitor degradation in the PIM? Its certainly getting used a *lot* here. Anyway, both sides still report the signal as 'excellent' so I shouldn't complain. It was a little alarming to see it drop to less than the perfect rating it had before though.